My friends and my immediate family have all expressed reservations about listening to a song because it was extremely long at one point in time or another.
Look at the billboard top 200 and tell me how many of those songs are over 8 minutes. I think that saying "people" is a pretty safe assumption. Based on popular music I honestly feel that the majority of people (at least in my area) are hearing songs that are much shorter than 8 minutes.
And don't be silly about Tori. Maybe not you but many, MANY people on @forums were instantly disappointed with ADP and AATS before they heard a single track based solely on the fact that the albums were very long.
I feel that way about some songs. (Look at Tori's version of Happiness is a Warm gun. The first couple of minutes is just useless Crap. Or the last 3 minutes of Datura)
Now, with Joanna I don't think there's as much filer because her instrumentals are absolutely beautiful. In that respect Only Skin does actually feel good as a whole. I just don't have much fun with the song just yet, repeated listens might change my mind.
Last edited by SageBrushFire; 07-14-2010 at 12:04 AM.
Ok, enough cheap shots.
If I recall correctly, Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, Meatloaf's Paradise by the Dashboardlight, Radiohead's Paranoid Android and Justin Timberlake's Lovestoned all were longer than 7 minutes and all have been big big BIG hits. In the charts. And 'people' can still sing along with them.
I will admit that a lot of people have the attentionspan of a blowfly, though.
You conveniently forget to mention the fact that that was based on prior disappointments where it had become obvious that Tori didn't have what it takes to fill an 18+ track album any more. Remember, Pele and SW are also long. They're pretty damned loved, don't you agree?And don't be silly about Tori. Maybe not you but many, MANY people on @forums were instantly disappointed with ADP and AATS before they heard a single track based solely on the fact that the albums were very long.
Besides, I wouldn't use the word 'disappointed'. 'concerned' maybe, and rightly so as it turned out.
Useless crap? This is a prime example of what you consider 'crap' actually adds something extremely substantial to the song. You might want to google Happiness is a warm Gun, its heritage, listen to the words spoken in that useless intro and think again. Wether you like it or not, that's something else, but useless crap it is not.I feel that way about some songs. (Look at Tori's version of Happiness is a Warm gun. The first couple of minutes is just useless Crap.
I don't want to steer this discussion in the value of art territory, but to me you're sounding like someone who thinks Rothko just painted colored squares, Pollock just splattered paint around and Mattise just made cut-outs.
There's nothing interesting about putting a bunch of quotes at the beginning of the song to make it "edgy" and all about second amendment rights issues. It was totally lame and you're one of the only people I've ever seen defend it. The original song spoke for itself and it didn't need a bunch of artsy fartsy fiddley-dee hoo ha (yes, that's a technical term) added to the beginning.
And you totally just contradicted yourself. First you say people were disappointed because Tori previously proved she couldn't do a good 18+ track album and then you gave two examples of really great 18+ track albums she made. People had equal evidence on both ends of the spectrum. I know you know that people just wanted shorter, well edited albums. ADP could have actually been good and people would still think it was heinous to have 23 tracks; even professional reviewers made fun of the track count before even talking about the songs.
I've read in many different places that 4 minutes is about the average length for songs. Just google "Average Song Length" and you'll so tons of different peoples' little tests and crap. I seriously do not think that it's ridiculous or unreasonable to state that people listen to more <8 minute songs than people listen to >8 minute songs. I don't see how listing a few long songs that got popular is even relevant. For every really long song that was a hit I can give you 100 that were short.
I don't understand why you guys think I'm somehow a lesser human being than you because I don't want to listen to really long songs. (Inane posting I get but this all originated from ebby accusing me of having ADHD because I didn't want to listen to Only Skin.)
After the terrible (and long) one-two punch of The Beekeeper and American Doll Posse along with embarrassing, ridiculous concert schtick and inane, self-absorbed nonsense in interviews, when people saw that she was putting out another long album, it was natural to think, "This probably isn't going to be good either." If she had been putting out consistently great records at that time, I don't think people would have shown nearly as much concern. Boys for Pele came out over a decade ago, after all.
And of course for every long song that was a hit you can give 100 that were short. Most songs are short. I don't think anyone has said that most songs are comparable in length to "Only Skin." Wout's point was that it is possible for the general public to enjoy long songs. It doesn't take a superhuman attention span.
I don't know if you're just really bad at arguing or if the points you always wind up arguing are just really stupid.
PoorMatty's post pretty much explained it.
I didn't contradict myself at all. You just can't read!
You say the original spoke for itself? That shows you really don't understand the difference between both versions.
Here we go:
1) In the original version, the lyrics are about drugs, about shooting up. I need a fix cause I'm going down? She's well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand?
2) Tori added the quotes at the beginning and thereby tried to change the meaning of the song, focussing more on gun issues. You know, John Lennon being shot and all? Seeing as the whole SLG album was about taking songs written by male characters and changing their context / meaning, I'd say she damn well succeeded with this track.
1.You're making just as many assumptions as you claim I was. You don't just magically know that 100% of everyone who complained about the length of ADP and AATS was complaining because of previous disappointments. And as I said, She has done good 18+ track albums in the past so there's no logical reason to think she's incapable of it (I actually loved AATS and still listen to it often). *
2. And that was not Wouts point at all. I said people don't generally listen to 8+ Minute songs and he said that was a big assumption. At no point did I ever insinuate that people couldn't like long songs. What I said was that they were not the norm and it's not uncommon at all for people to have reservations about doing things that are outside the norm.
3. I don't know if you just refuse to read my posts entirely and make up points I was never talking about or if you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. None of you has any good points you just throw some completley inaccurate B.S. together, insult me and call it a riposte.
And for God's sake Wout will you give up on HIAWG? I know what the fucking original version is about, I got Wikipedia too. I don't fucking like Tori's version because I think putting sound bytes into a song is lame as hell and I think transforming a popular Beatles song into an anthem against second amendment rights was a lame attempt at being edgy. The first time I heard it I got one of those "Ugh this is embarrassing and corny" feelings.
*I'd also like to go back into the @ files and see just what people were thinking about TBK, which came directly after a wonderful 18 track album. I wonder what people's thoughts were when it was coming out.
No, what you said was that you'd have to have a superhuman attention span to sit through a long song, which made us all go 'eh?'.What I said was that they were not the norm and it's not uncommon at all for people to have reservations about doing things that are outside the norm.
And then you yourself couldn't let it go but started making all these inane assumptions about what you consider standard human behaviour, which made us all go 'eh?'.
Uhm, yes, yes it was. You just can't read.2. And that was not Wouts point at all.
See, you said: "I think a lot of people generally don't listen to 8+ minute songs so when they see a track that's 16 minutes it's kind of off-putting."
I said: that is not a logical conclusion. If people are exposed to short songs a lot, and the majority of songs written are less than 8 minutes, then yes: people listen to more short songs than long songs. NOBODY ARGUED THAT POINT!
I do think it's untrue that just because "people" mostly come into contact with short songs, that that automatically means that the thought of a long song is off-putting. which is why I named you some very popular long songs.
See the difference?
Maybe, but I think it's a damn DAMN shame when "people" were to automatically dismiss things as soon as it's outside the norm or their comfort zone.What I said was that they were not the norm and it's not uncommon at all for people to have reservations about doing things that are outside the norm.