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Thread: The entertainment industry's unstoppable bullshit machine

  1. #541
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    *sits on hands*

  2. #542
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    The biggest threat to the #MeToo movement is fucking rapists and their desire to keep power. "This victim's story doesn't meet my standards, so it's a disgrace to survivors everywhere" is just concern-trolling.
    EXACTLY. I guess the HLN anchor Ashleigh Banfield trotted out this line last night and....no. A disagreement between people as to what constitutes assault does NOT destroy the movement. Indeed, it sounds to me like an important thing to discuss. Personally, I found the story horrifying. It may not technically break the law, but IMO Ansari deserves all the shit that he’s getting. If we are truly trying to create a new reality for the treatment of women, something like this should be seen as unacceptable.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  3. #543
    trapped in the worst timeline just owls's Avatar
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    She repeatedly asked him to slow down. He said he would and kept going. She removed her hand from his crotch. He put it back.

    This stuff might be typical "bad date" behavior. That's a problem. It doesn't mean it's just an uncomfortable experience because it's common. The fact that this type of behavior is so easily dismissed as something one can expect to happen on a bad date is a very big fucking problem. A bad date should be someone being rude to a waiter or talking over you or chewing with their mouth open, not repeatedly showing they do not respect your sexual boundaries.

  4. #544
    Senior Member JAE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherNamedErised View Post
    I'm sorry, I read and re-read the Babe piece, trying to piece together what happened to this woman. I'm sorry that "Grace" had a bad date, which she is referring to as the worst night of her life. And, yes, it's certainly upsetting that yet another guy turned out to be oafish and self-absorbed. But she was not assaulted. This is a grown woman accusing a guy of not reading her mind. She had an uncomfortable sexual experience that she walked away from, even if she took her sweet time to do even that. She does not get to diminish the ongoing movement of actual survivors of horrific abuse stepping up and sharing their stories. The fact that so many readers can't see that this is a blatant grab for 15 minutes' worth of attention just blows me away. People like "Grace" are the biggest threat to everything that #MeToo has stood for.
    He didn't have to be a mind reader because she specifically told him (even ignoring the multiple physical actions she described that any reasonable person should be able to decipher as meaning obvious discomfort).

    This whole issue and the global discussion we're having right now transcends simple legal definitions and what falls inside or outside of the law - Aziz is not in court. It's about behaviour that is unacceptable and the unreasonable entitlement that some people feel they have over someone else's body, life and autonomy.

  5. #545
    trapped in the worst timeline just owls's Avatar
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    I think this article does a great job at explaining why so many (women) are having trouble acknowleding what happened to "Grace" as assault in any way.

    Women have already taken enough of a painful personal inventory to be able to say #metoo; I am not eager to go back over what I've come to comfortably accept as "crappy hookups," or "shitty sex," and come to realize that yes, that was sexual assault too.

    If we begin to call all sexual assault what it is, we will have to voluntarily admit more pain into our lives, pain that we have up to this point refused to let in the door. If we call this kind of sexual encounter an assault, then women who have been weathering what they call bad sex will suddenly have justification for the icky feelings and shame that follows them home in the cab. And yet, we'd really rather just hit the showers.

    I've taken that cab, crying. And I've taken that shower. And I would never have told the story, because I would have been afraid of someone thinking, "That's not that bad," the way I just fucking did. I don't have to imagine what happened to Grace because I remember it.

  6. #546
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    But guys, it's very important that we don't criticize men who have sex with women they know don't want to have sex!

    Here's an edifying post for why the "misread the situation" excuse is garbage.

  7. #547
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    It could DESTROY THE WHOLE MOVEMENT.

    Seriously, Owls, thanks for posting that. As soon as I read it, it made perfect sense. The sad fact is that this is gonna hurt. It usually does when we have to revisit things and change perspective, but for obvious reasons, this is gonna hurt more than usual.

  8. #548
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  9. #549
    Loves ponies. Hates phonies. Regina Phalange's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about the situation re: Aziz a lot. I'm not looking for an excuse to keep him on my ever-shrinking "good" list, but that article just didn't do it for me. I'm seeing a lot of bad takes on both sides and I just now finally found one I agree with.

    That Article Was Bad.

    That Babe Dot Net Aziz article is horribly written and negligently published. It has done no one any good – not the victim, not the movement, no one. And again let me be very specific, because I got a lot of condescending snark for talking about this before, I am not saying that this woman telling her story was wrong, I am saying that this WEBSITE publishing a half-baked account full of distracting details and lacking important ones has done no good.

    This whole movement was broken open by top notch journalism. That first Weinstein article in the NY Times was incredibly well researched. The Ronan Farrow articles that followed got in front of every angle of doubt and chased them down, again creating an airtight depiction. That’s why people finally believed – it was finally all presented with tons of evidence and stories that pointed to undeniable patterns of abuse. Yes, women should be believed, but as with any crime there will be doubts and these articles did the victims a service by expecting and invalidating these doubts with facts.

    ...

    But this Aziz article is dogshit. However abusive you, dear reader, might or might not find the night in question – I’d say that publishing this article was a far more abusive act against that victim. They hung her out to dry in exchange for clicks on their garbage website no one had ever heard of before. This article left out important details, but it DID include tidbits like her outfit was “a good outfit” (?) and he gave her the wrong type of wine which was significant to her. This makes it look like her complaints about the sexual encounter are on par with her complaints about the wine. This is the sort of thing someone would include in an article in which they are ACTIVELY trying to discredit the victim.

    The picture painted is so confusing and threadbare, everyone is parsing it through the lens of their own experiences...
    In ALL of these cases, people are using their personal experiences and traumas to fill in the gaps and shade the edges of this flaming turd of an article. It isn’t accurate, and it’s making everything feel personal.
    So like, me saying I don't now hate Aziz doesn't mean that I don't think people who had similar experiences aren't valid in their feelings (including the story subject), but that I think the article was so flawed I can't in good conscience condemn him. It feels like one is supposed to see this in black and white, and all I see are badly written shades of gray.

    Also? I shouldn't find this so amusingly awful but I do. It's the worst take of all the takes.





    She later apologized for confusing all of them. If it's trolling, it's really good trolling.

  10. #550
    Senior Member HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    I've been thinking about the situation re: Aziz a lot. I'm not looking for an excuse to keep him on my ever-shrinking "good" list, but that article just didn't do it for me. I'm seeing a lot of bad takes on both sides and I just now finally found one I agree with.

    That Article Was Bad.



    So like, me saying I don't now hate Aziz doesn't mean that I don't think people who had similar experiences aren't valid in their feelings (including the story subject), but that I think the article was so flawed I can't in good conscience condemn him. It feels like one is supposed to see this in black and white, and all I see are badly written shades of gray.

    .
    Yesssssssss

  11. #551
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    ???

    I literally don't understand how it's just us projecting trauma onto a situation where she told him, using her words, that she didn't want to be forced (which he then referred to later with "doesn't seem like you hate me now", which, ew), moved away from him, moved her hands away from his genitals, said she wanted to something else ("chill") and didn't want to do anything on a first date, and still he was sticking his fingers in her. I don't understand how we're supposed to interpret it as "just a bad date" when she went home crying in the cab and told all her friends she was upset and shaken. These were all details in the article. I'm not sure how "her outfit was good" and "the wine was shitty" are details that change any of that.

    Also, Babe.net is not a "shitty website no one's ever heard of". My cousin reads it, I've heard of it, it has a few million readers a month and a million followers on Facebook.

  12. #552
    Sleeps to dream entropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve SFM View Post
    Asking her would be a great place to start!
    I'll be honest here. I've started to write this several times, but I held back. Namely, some women are not taught that how to say no and that they can say no. I know this sounds weird. But I mistakenly believed that the other person would just know. I remember when I was a senior in high school (12th grade). My friend was telling me about a sexual experience she had where they guy asked her if he could kiss her. They talked about WHAT exactly they were going to do that night in great details, oral, hands, etc... At the time, I thought it was weird and unnatural. Now, I see it has totally legit!

    This was in stark contrast to when I had been forcefully kissed, etc. There are many conversations that need to be had on all fronts. We need to empower woman and educate men.
    Last edited by entropy; 01-16-2018 at 11:16 PM.

  13. #553
    Loves ponies. Hates phonies. Regina Phalange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    I don't understand how we're supposed to interpret it as "just a bad date" when she went home crying in the cab and told all her friends she was upset and shaken. These were all details in the article. I'm not sure how "her outfit was good" and "the wine was shitty" are details that change any of that.
    I don't recall anyone said "just a bad date" here. I believe, and agree with the piece I posted, that it was written so badly that I can't make a judgment. Any relevant, pertinent, important details were lost in the shitty writing. Which makes it more of a shame if he is a major creeper because the point was lost on people like me.

  14. #554
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Which relevant, pertinent or important details were lost?

  15. #555
    Loves ponies. Hates phonies. Regina Phalange's Avatar
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    A coherent narrative. Like I said in my first post about this, I couldn't understand that piece of shit writing. It wasn't journalism as I need it to be. And it's unfortunate that a potentially big deal was lost on people like me who can't make heads or tails out of it. And it just reads TO ME as unreliable, that the baby does have to get thrown out with the bathwater. It's not about defending Aziz, but my personal take is that I can't rely on what was written because I don't think it was written well enough FOR ME to judge it.

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