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Thread: The entertainment industry's unstoppable bullshit machine

  1. #586
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    So, based on that crappy article, almost everyone in here thinks Grace handled the situation ever so well, there were no moments with ambiguous signals at all and all the blame is on that silly piece of excuse of a human being? I'm actually still in the "I have no idea what exactly went down" camp. I should stop though, because right now I care way more about how this discussion went down the gutter into the drain than about the actual topic at hand.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  2. #587
    Mr. Tricorder Pete!'s Avatar
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    Obviously being murdered (or raped) is on the extreme end of a scale, but it is a scale, and I don't doubt for a second that women fear for their safety when they end up in a situation where the guy turns out to be a creep.

    At this point, Grace, and this article, is a stand-in for women who have found themselves in a potentially dangerous situation where the power is skewed out of their favour. Why is that difficult to understand? Why are there still people criticising a woman for being in this situation and not putting the onus on creepy dudes for creating these situations in the first place?

  3. #588
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    no one said there was no ambiguity, literally no one said these things.
    I didn't say they were, that is why I ask; considering the way you and Perky reacted to me, and the way others reacted to Dan.
    I wonder what ambiguity people may confirm, of the situation, of behaviour or of both?

    For example, when I raised the ambiguity issues displayed, this was said;

    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    I have no idea how any of that changes the fact that she gave him several non-verbal and verbal signals that she did not want to have sex and he kept pushing and pressuring her.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    And the extra details and confusing timeline doesn't obscure the fact that she DID use words and she DID say no and he ignored her and continued to try for it.
    These things aren't entirely correct imho because it places sole focus on the eventual non-ambiguous words, and outright ignores the potentially ambiguous situation, behaviours, non-verbal cues and wordings that were there before.

    Idk. I value your input Kari, but totally respect it if you don't want to discuss any further.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  4. #589
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Obviously being murdered (or raped) is on the extreme end of a scale, but it is a scale, and I don't doubt for a second that women fear for their safety when they end up in a situation where the guy turns out to be a creep.

    At this point, Grace, and this article, is a stand-in for women who have found themselves in a potentially dangerous situation where the power is skewed out of their favour. Why is that difficult to understand? Why are there still people criticising a woman for being in this situation and not putting the onus on creepy dudes for creating these situations in the first place?
    Maybe in this case the judgment should be made on a scale, where one end is "highly ambiguous" and the other end is "sexual assault". Because many people - in this case - aren't that sure that THIS particular situation falls on the one extreme "sexual assault" based on descriptions given, doesn't mean anyone is criticizing her for being in that siutation. Things often aren't that black and white - as you yourself pointed out.
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  5. #590
    Senior Member uncanny hats's Avatar
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    If we focus exclusively on verbal cues for a moment, she said she didn't want to sleep with him that first night, verbally. So, there we are. I don't care what's happened prior, if anyone says "no," that means no. "Next time" doesn't mean a second date is a glass of wine. Is that ambiguous? I'm not sure how that's ambiguous.

    But also this FB post.

  6. #591
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncanny hats View Post
    If we focus exclusively on verbal cues for a moment, she said she didn't want to sleep with him that first night, verbally. So, there we are. I don't care what's happened prior, if anyone says "no," that means no. "Next time" doesn't mean a second date is a glass of wine. Is that ambiguous? I'm not sure how that's ambiguous.

    But also this FB post.
    She said that pretty late verbally. After a blowjob and all sorts of other erotic stuff during 40 mins approximately. They were drinking too. "Next time as in a second date?" She answered "oh yeah sure" confirming to him they d fuck on a second date "next time". Why the hell would anyone say that at that point, feeling as she did? It only gets his hopes up. So we must conclude she said that because of the distress. He might not know, he hears a "next time we'll definitely fuck" instead of utter disgust. He suggests a glass of wine as a second date and hands her a glass. Idk? Did she accept the glass of wine at all at this point? It seems she did, because "soon after" she flees to bathroom. Why not refuse the wine entirely? Distress again, probably. But still, ambiguous at best.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  7. #592
    Mr. Tricorder Pete!'s Avatar
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    I think the ambiguity is drawn from people's notions of consent, which is something men are now having to reckon with. Consent can be fluid and can be withdrawn; once consent is withdrawn, that's pretty unambiguous.

  8. #593
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    I think the ambiguity is drawn from people's notions of consent, which is something men are now having to reckon with. Consent can be fluid and can be withdrawn; once consent is withdrawn, that's pretty unambiguous.
    Yeah so why is the discussion not focussed on the part where consent was withdrawn unambiguously, and what exactly happened after that? Because people are more grossed out by the first part in a sorta moralizing way, I figure: "ehw he sticks fingers in mouth the filthy pervert" and the way she was feeling while giving him a blowjob twice. That is news that sells very well because of the entertainment value. After she said no the story becomes a major snooze to most people.
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  9. #594
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    I'm out. This thread has taken a turn towards the disgusting. You dudes can hash it out amongst yourselves.

  10. #595
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    "Disgusting", really? Oh yeah certainly Dan and I are such disgusting folks who dont care one single bit about equality in the world, completely blind for serious issues women face such as sexual assault, and more importantly completely not intelligent enough to analyse and converse about a specific situation.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  11. #596
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    Well, there's another thing that some people are taking for granted and I think that's a mistake.
    (Let's imagine for a minute that Grace-Ansari didn't happen, ok?)

    We have verbal communication. We speak. Sometimes we use the same language. But even when that happens, when we're being verbal, the other person doesn't always understand what we are saying. That happens all the time. So we have to try to use different words, that's when we start to use analogies and metaphores.
    So, if using words is not always accurate and creates some misunderstandings, I wouldn't say that the non-verbal communication is clearer at all.

    Men have a lot, A LOT of things to learn. And women too: they have to learn to SAY no, to verbalize it, and to stand for it and fight for it. I've read (not here, comments in some articles) some really passive positions, like it's not a change that the whole society has to do but only a small group of people.
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

  12. #597
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waitressboy View Post
    (Let's imagine for a minute that Grace-Ansari didn't happen, ok?)
    Fuck that, I can never forget it now. Instead challenging what is said by actual discussion, people start slinging mud as if their opinion is the only one that counts and this place should be an echo chamber of that.
    Wish I had never even tried to enforce the discussion in the first place, those insults have an actual effect on psychological wellbeing right now I think.
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  13. #598
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    Goddamn it. I like this thread. I don’t want it to die out.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  14. #599
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Fuck that, I can never forget it now. Instead challenging what is said by actual discussion, people start slinging mud as if their opinion is the only one that counts and this place should be an echo chamber of that.
    Wish I had never even tried to enforce the discussion in the first place, those insults have an actual effect on psychological wellbeing right now I think.
    Oh, no, what I meant was to advice that my post was not talking about Grace and Asnari particularly, the "her verbal no, her non-verbal no". I was talking about how unclear it can be when anybody is trying to communicate with another person, and not even just in a sexual relation.
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

  15. #600
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebby View Post
    All of your suggestions basically are aimed at a man feeling like he's covered his bases with the end goal of not ending up "on babe.net or whatever"

    So, women have to learn more than men. You definitely have a lot more advice for them, and trust me, I'm sure women are sick to death of men telling them what they should do in order to feel safe.
    You're absolutely right. That was the whole point. Women are supposed to be the smart ones. I think this project of wholly reforming all men that current feminism is undertaking is doomed to fail; if anything, that article is a fucking recruiting tool for MRAs. I believe it's very important for women to be proactive when it comes to their safety and not expect miracles from men. I'm completely uninterested in dating and having sex with women, so I have nothing to gain from this, I'm not looking out for myself or my "straight brethren" (lulz, as if). I don't think parroting various "woke" ideas and concepts which nobody outside very liberal circles gives a fuck about is the solution. The virtue signaling coming from certain camps is deafening.

    I hear what women are saying. I listen, and I realize that there is no consensus on this matter. There are plenty of intelligent, thoughtful, non-bigoted women who are saying the exact same things I am saying (and who are demonized in some circles at this point - see: Ashleigh Banfield). There are also a lot of equally intelligent and thoughtful women who think that men in general can and need to change structurally completely in order to accommodate their perspectives and desires. I find that line of thinking beautiful and worthy, but ultimately utopic. I hear what men are saying too, and that leads me to the previous conclusion. There seem to be huge differences between men's and women's ideas and perceptions of sex, sexuality and sexual activity. Women are understandably trying to change the status quo, but there has to be a dialog; they can't just say "oh, men should be like this and like that" and expect men to fully comply without saying a word, particularly in an egalitarian society. When for instance finger sucking is seen by some as a violent act that requires a BDSM contract, whoa, there's a problem. While of course, men can't expect women to be fully compliant with every single one of their sexual whims, at the same time women can't expect to have basically lesbian sex and relationships with men.

    I don't think gay men's input on this matter should be quickly discounted. We are in the unique position of knowing what it's like both to be men and to date and have sex with men - basically, as close to a middle ground as it's ever going to get. Yes, obviously, we are not women; but at the same time, we're not fighting for our privilege in this matter either.

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