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Thread: Trans thread :)

  1. #1
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    Trans thread :)

    There was good news in the USA recently, where it's no longer necessary to have undergone full surgery to get a passport in your acquired gender This is great for trans folk who can't or don't want to undo full surgery for whatever reason (often medical reasons, actually).

    Article: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/06/10...-trans-people/

  2. #2
    Let them eat cake! Yuki's Avatar
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    I wish we had that in the Philippines, as I've had my share of embarrassing airport incidents.

  3. #3
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
    I wish we had that in the Philippines, as I've had my share of embarrassing airport incidents.
    That must be really frustrating

    Here in Ireland we finally had some good news coming out of a long running court case where Dr. Lydia Foy has been campaigning to have her gender recognised on her birth certificate.

    A Gender Recognition Bill was included in the Programme for Government, and looks like it might actually be introduced to parliament next year, which is excellent news. http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/law-r...il-106732.html

    We'll see how it goes, as it has been a long battle. Luckily the Free Legal Advice Centres supported and funded by Atlantic Philanthropies were who took on Lydia Foy's case, otherwise who knows where Ireland would be in terms of trans rights.


  4. #4
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    Good news from Ireland!

    The Government has withdrawn its appeal to the Supreme Court regarding the outcome of the Lydia Foy case This means the Government will now go about drafting legislation to allow trans persons to change their documents to reflect their acquired gender as opposed to their birth gender.

    It's finally the end of a 13 year legal battle:

    Appeal against transgender ruling withdrawn

    THE GOVERNMENT has withdrawn its appeal against a landmark ruling by the High Court that Irish law on transgender rights is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights.

    The decision brings to an end a 13 year legal battle against the State by Dr Lydia Foy, a former dentist who was registered as male at birth and fought for legal recognition to live as a woman.

    It also paves the way for the Government to propose new legislation giving transsexuals the right to obtain birth certificates showing their acquired sex and the entitlement to marry in that gender.

    Dr Foy, who began High Court proceedings to secure recognition of her acquired gender in 1997, said she was delighted the long legal battle was finally over. I hope this achievement will help others who have endured the pain, abuse, isolation, humiliation and fear that have been the lot of those who are transgendered, she said.

    [...]

    Under current law a transgendered person cannot have a birth certificate issued with his or her new gender, and does not have the right to marry in that identity.

    However, in October 2007 the High Court, in a case brought by Lydia Foy, stated that Irish law on issuing identity documents to transgendered people was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

    Mr Justice McKechnie ruled that the lack of a provision in Irish law for recognising Dr Foys new gender identity was a breach of her rights under Article 8 of the ECHR, which protects private and family life. In this regard, Ireland as of now is very much isolated within the member states of the Council of Europe, he added.

    This landmark judgment overturned a previous ruling by the same judge of the High Court in July 2002, who found physical and biological indicators should be used to determine sex/gender.

    Just two days after this ruling was delivered, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg found in favour of recognising transsexuals right to legal recognition. A year later the Oireachtas enacted the 2003 ECHR Act, which incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into Irish law and created the conditions for Ms Foys eventual legal victory in 2007. The Governments decision to withdraw its appeal against the 2007 decision by the High Court means it will have to reply to that judgment.

    Under section 5 of the ECHR Act 2003 the Taoiseach must bring to the attention of the Dil and Seanad ireann a declaration of incompatibility issued by the High Court within 21 sitting days.

    In anticipation of the withdrawal of the legal appeal the Government has set up an inter-departmental committee on the legal recognition of transsexuals.

    The gender recognition advisory group held its first meeting on May 6th and is due to make recommendations on legislation within six months. Under its terms of reference it is to propose heads of a Bill to provide for:

    A process for legal recognition of the acquired gender of persons suffering from gender identity disorder who have made transition from one gender to another;

    To set up a gender recognition register for such persons. The certificates issued by this register should be indistinguishable from birth certificates and not refer to the fact a person has acquired a new gender;

    An entitlement to transsexuals to marry in the legally recognised reassigned gender.

    Michael Farrell, senior solicitor for Free Legal Advice Centres, who represented Ms Foy in the case, called on the Government to act quickly to introduce legislation.

  5. #5
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    Justin Bond has come out as trans, and now will be referred to as "[url=http://justinbond.com/?p=537]Mx. Justin Vivian Bond[/b], or V, and introduced two more additions to the growing invented pronoun and honorific family.

    Although, I do rather like Mx.
    Prefix: Mx.

    I don’t like any of the prefixes currently in common usage as none of them seem to apply… check one: _Mr. _Mrs. _Ms. _Miss. None of these work so I have adopted Mx because it implies a mix which is the least offensive and most general way I’ve been able to come up with to find a prefix that clearly states a trans identity without amplifying a binary gender preference, or even acknowledging the gender binary at all.
    And although I'm less sure of "v" as a pronoun, it is a bit easier feels a bit more natural than "ze" or "xe" or the many other proposed gender neutral pronouns for english.

    after introducing two of the other panelists I heard my name followed by “they” and I began looking around to find out who the other people were he was talking about, then I remembered that “they” was me. I got a good chuckle out of it but my pronoun quandary was clearly NOT solved.

    So what I’ve come up with is “v”. Since my name is Justin Vivian Bond and since Vivian begins with a V and visually a V is two even sides which meet in the middle I would like v to be my pronoun.

    For example:

    Justin Vivian Bond was described in The New Yorker as “a bar of gold in the new depression”. V’s latest eponymous show at Joe’s Pub will be Saturday January 8th at 11:30

    or

    “Have you seen Justin Vivian?”

    “Yes, V ran to the store to pick up the dress v is having altered .”

    V covers it all.
    And regarding treating "trans" as a separate gender box entirely:

    Gender: Trans

    When asked to check a gender on forms I am constantly forced to lie. I have filled in the _m box for most of my life but I resent having to do it. I think many transexuals are quite comfortable filling out either the _m or the _f box and I must say I envy them. In my dream world there would also be a choice that said _t because then I, too, would have a box to comfortably check as my place in society -or at least in the society of form-filling paperwork.

    My gender is neither male nor female but Trans.
    Certainly there will be people who will agree and disagree on some of the proposals from Mx Justin Vivian Bond, but I think there's some great food for thought there, especially for folk who don't transition from one gender to another, but consider themselves genderqueer, or use other terms to describe a gender that isn't male or female.

    But when it comes to gender, I'm rather keen on making gender fields in forms a text box, instead of providing just the binary choice for people. Allowing people to define their own gender. There's a great article on that very idea here: Genders And Drop Down Menus, and the subsequent Gender Is A Text Field (backstory and context re: Diaspora)




  6. #6
    bubble in a soundwave sara's Avatar
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    ^ That chart is awesome.
    If you're into trans theory-mixed-with-a-healthy-dose-of-personal-narrative, S. Bear Bergman has 2 books out that are quite good. Butch Is A Noun, which deals more with butchness and identity and The Nearest Exit May Be Behind You. That one goes into more details/theoretical discussions on trans identity.

  7. #7
    feel it seep thru the slick divide MyNameisWarts's Avatar
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    What do people think about transgender identity being pathologized/medicalized? Meaning, gender dysphoria currently being recognized as a mental disorder in the DSM (diagnostic/statistical manual of mental disorders)? There's going to be a new edition of the DSM in the next few years with a lot of significant changes, but im fairly certain that gender dysphoria is there to stay.

    Of course, there is a long history of LGBT people being marginalized and demonized because same sex attraction was considered disordered and dangerous, but i think the trans issue is a lot more complicated. I know trans people who are adamant that it should remain medicalized, because often they need medications and surgeries to help them through their transition, and having those needs recognized as a legitimate medical problem helps them find support in their communities, and in the medical community, helps with insurance issues to whatever extent possible, etc etc. I think the stigmatization of trans people is very disheartening, but at the same time it is different from homosexuality in that medical approaches very often relieve the suffering and persistent discomfort some trans folks feel pre-transition. Im really torn on the issue.

  8. #8
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    There has been some work here in Ireland to finally have some legal recognition for people who transition. However, the Gender Recognition Advisory Group's report followed the lines of the original UK legislation, which required people to divorce/annul any marriage or civil partnership prior to transition.

    As the Irish Times puts it:

    The irony of requiring people to divorce as a precondition to gender recognition should not be lost on a population that until 1995 laboured under a regime that banned divorce outright. When divorce finally was introduced, it was permitted on grounds among the most exacting in Europe, conditions that emphasise divorce should be a last resort when all else has failed. It remains an open question whether requiring couples to divorce to gain a particular benefit amounts to an attack on marriage, contrary to Article 41 of the Constitution.

    The elephant in the room, however, is same-sex marriage. The group expresses the concern that allowing a person to remain married notwithstanding a formal change of legally recognised gender in effect converts an opposite-sex marriage into a same-sex marriage. This would, the group maintains, be unconstitutional.
    It may end up that trans people will have to choose between their marriage and their gender transition, basically because of how stringent the divorce law is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by same article
    Irish law requires, among other things, that a divorce will only be granted where the spouses have lived apart for four of the previous five years and have no reasonable prospect of reconciliation. These are constitutionally mandated requirements that may only be altered by referendum.

    Notably, “living apart” as a prerequisite to divorce presupposes that spouses are living separate and independent lives in circumstances where at least one of the spouses has mentally determined not to continue the marital relationship. Thus, if the transgendered person and her spouse remain emotionally committed to each other, a divorce is simply not possible, even if they go through the motions of living in separate places. If the couple cannot show that their relationship has ended, it follows that the spouses cannot meet either the living apart or the “no prospect of reconciliation” tests that are mandatory prerequisites to divorce. In short, they will not be able to divorce.
    So, basically, the proposed legislation will require a couple to split up and live apart for a minimum of 4 years over a 5 year period, and then divorce, and then allow the trans person to legally change their gender here, even if the couple wants to stay together throughout transitioning and have no wish to separate.

    That is insanity.

  9. #9
    Let them eat cake! Yuki's Avatar
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    The whole concept of "no prospect of reconciliation" is completely moronic in this case, as this law is essentially seeking to forbid trans people and their (former) spouses from being together at all, in marriage or without it. I mean, I get why they'd have to divorce in the first place (it's totally stupid but I get it) but why are the restrictions on divorce so incredibly stringent? It's like, in order to follow these incredibly parochial laws while at the same time trying to establish an identity you're comfortable with, you must divorce your spouse- not just legally but totally, utterly, completely!

    On the plus side, at least Ireland has divorce and some semblance of trans legislation? Over here we're still in battle over sex ed being taught in schools. Oh, the Catholic Church! Keeping us modern since time immemorial!

  10. #10
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    The divorce legislation is so stringent because of the "special place of the family" in our Constitution, amongst other things. Divorce only became legal in Ireland in 1995, and it was a really big issue then as, you know, DOWNFALL OF SOCIETY etc, so the rules around divorce here are apparently the strictest in Europe. Our constitution has a special section about rights of the family, based on a married couple being the definition of family.

    As for sex ed, the only sex ed when I was in school was in biology class in Junior cycle (circa age 14/15). As recently as 2010, the Irish times was writing about how "some 74 per cent of Irish secondary school pupils received no sex education classes last year, according to a survey published yesterday."

    Oh joyous backwards education systems.

    What is interesting though, is that maybe this proposed Gender Recognition legislation will show up the failings of the Civil Partnership legislation here. Indeed, if they had gone for full marriage equality, where marriage is defined as being between two people, then this issue with the Gender Recognition legislation requiring trans people to divorce would just not apply at all. Which makes sense, as the couple are still the same couple, regardless of how their gender expression. Why downgrade their legal status and take away a bunch of their legal rights simply because one of the couple transitions. It's so infuriating, as in my opinion it should be really simple. Marriage shouldn't be gendered - it is between two people, not between to sets of genitals.

  11. #11
    she might not be so bold fullofwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebby View Post
    There was good news in the USA recently, where it's no longer necessary to have undergone full surgery to get a passport in your acquired gender This is great for trans folk who can't or don't want to undo full surgery for whatever reason (often medical reasons, actually).

    Article: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/06/10...-trans-people/
    In Australia, you can now get passports with a third gender option - X as long as "their choice is supported by a doctor's statement".

    Another article about this change from samesame.com.au

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameisWarts View Post
    What do people think about transgender identity being pathologized/medicalized? Meaning, gender dysphoria currently being recognized as a mental disorder in the DSM (diagnostic/statistical manual of mental disorders)? There's going to be a new edition of the DSM in the next few years with a lot of significant changes, but im fairly certain that gender dysphoria is there to stay.

    Of course, there is a long history of LGBT people being marginalized and demonized because same sex attraction was considered disordered and dangerous, but i think the trans issue is a lot more complicated. I know trans people who are adamant that it should remain medicalized, because often they need medications and surgeries to help them through their transition, and having those needs recognized as a legitimate medical problem helps them find support in their communities, and in the medical community, helps with insurance issues to whatever extent possible, etc etc. I think the stigmatization of trans people is very disheartening, but at the same time it is different from homosexuality in that medical approaches very often relieve the suffering and persistent discomfort some trans folks feel pre-transition. Im really torn on the issue.
    I am totally behind the proposition that everyone should be free to do as s/he pleases with her/his body, but I can't stomach it when I read the debts transgender folks get into for surgery and how some of them are forced to behave in order to service these debts. A lot of doctors have a lot to answer for, in my opinion.

  13. #13
    let's face it couldbemessy's Avatar
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    I am a bit of a lurker so I thought I'd try and change that today.

    I am a member of Lesbian & Gay Bands Association and I play in the Houston band. At a recent LGBA conference in Seattle, someone whom I had met before at a previous conference befriended me as apparently I was looking bored before the performance. He asked "what a good looking guy" like me was doing without a boyfriend (and then proceeded to tell me about his partner). Then he asked (with the pretext that he didn't mean to offend) if I was trans. I said no, but I thought it was an odd question (is that wrong)? He said later that he could "sense" these things in people. Interestingly enough, long ago I had discussed with my good friend of many years, that maybe I am trans. I definitely don't feel comfortable in my body, which is why I've started weight training again, but I don't have much interest in going through surgery or the struggles involved with a gender change.

    I think about this stuff rarely, but I came across this thread and thought I'd try and contribute given this happened this year.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Bastien's Avatar
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    Are there any good books out there on the history of the transgender community?

  15. #15
    Let them eat cake! Yuki's Avatar
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    I haven't actually read it yet, but I've heard Julia Serano's Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity is really good. I'm not sure how historical it is, though.

    I'm sorry I have nothing better to offer!

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