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Thread: Kiss Your Rights Goodbye, America.

  1. #16
    Ugggggghhhhhhh Octopussy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SparkleMotion View Post
    This was my exact thought when I first thought of this. It's the Terry Schiavo thing all over again: knee-jerk reaction laws that are really about one specific case but get applied across the board.
    It's much more insidious than any Terry Shiavo laws though. It's an unprecedented police state-ism for our country.

  2. #17
    Ugggggghhhhhhh Octopussy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c33 View Post
    No. I meant exactly what I said.
    sigh.

  3. #18
    to the loneliest city in the world other pete's Avatar
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    Good grief. I suppose since the US State gave itself the right to do this to non-humans US citizens a decade ago it was really only a matter of time.

    Doesn't that little olde constitution still count for something though? Coffee-break wikipedia-ing has lead me to this, on Habeas Corpus (the right to demand release if not being openly charged with a crime, a crazy new idea introduced in 1305 to stop Kings throwing people into dungeons/interrogation camps):

    The U.S. Constitution specifically includes the habeas procedure in the Suspension Clause(Clause 2), located in Article One, Section 9. This states that "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it."
    So, in the spirit of right wing law makers the world over, which word will they redefine first - "rebellion" or "invasion"?

  4. #19
    waited with a glacier's patience Churumbela's Avatar
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    I'm gonna guess "invasion."
    I am the beginning. The end. The one that is many.

  5. #20
    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Other Piotr View Post

    So, in the spirit of right wing law makers the world over, which word will they redefine first - "rebellion" or "invasion"?
    If I read it correctly, the senators that voted this in were just as much democrat as they were repubs.

    Here's another article from gawker:

    20 things you should know about americas most horrifying new law:

    Top Stories

    20 Things You Should Know About the Bill That Could Ruin America
    war on terror
    By Lauri Apple
    Dec 5, 2011 12:30 PM
    29,474 224
    20 Things You Should Know About the Bill That Could Ruin America

    Last week the U.S. Senate passed 93-7 a version of the National Defense Authorization Act that includes provisions giving the military the right to detain you forever and without charge if they think you're some kind of terrorist. Consider it an early holiday present! There is no exchange policy, sorry.

    President Barack Obama can get rid of the Act's indefinite detention provisions by using his veto powers. He says he might do just that, so there is hope. But Hopey could also change his mind at the last minute and let the language become law. Civil libertarians from all sides of the political spectrum are very anxious about the final call he'll make.

    Even though you can't do much to prevent the provisions from taking effect, here's a list of 20 details about them. Maybe the info will come in handy when you finally flee to Saudi Arabia ISO political refugee status and have to explain how your country was oppressing you:

    1. The provisions were passed as part of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA)—enacted for the last 48 years or so to provide funding for the military and all our wars. (The act for fiscal year 2012 awarded $662 billion for defense spending.) Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and Carl Levin (D-MI) took the lead in promoting them, making passage a bipartisan effort/failure.
    2. Initially the provisions passed in a closed-door committee meeting, without a single hearing. The Senate didn't want to spoil the surprise for everybody.
    3. Because of the provisions, the NDAA now says the military can detain anyone deemed to be "a part of" or deemed to have "substantially supported" Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or "associated forces." You can be on the battlefield, or you can be PayPaling money to your local terrorist cell while sipping your latte at a Starbucks—doesn't matter. Even though we captured Saddam, Osama, and Anwar al-Awlaki, these powers are still necessary. Don't question.
    4. The bill grants power to the military to arrest U.S. citizens on American soil and detain them in military prisons forever without offering them the right to legal counsel or even a trial. This isn't a totally new thing: "dirty bomb" plotter Jose Padilla spent three-and-a-half years as an "enemy combatant" until he was finally charged. But Padilla's detention was unusual and sparked a huge outcry; the new provisions would standardize his treatment and enable us all to become Jose Padillas.
    5. Some people are trying to say that language regarding indefinite detention (Section 1031) doesn't apply to American citizens, but it does. However, the mandatory detention requirement (Section 1032) includes an exemption for American citizens, which means the military doesn't have to imprison you forever and ever "unless ordered to do so" by the president. You better remove that Nobama bumper sticker from your truck.
    6. The provisions could last as long as fruitcake lasts. We covered this earlier.
    7. Many important people oppose the provisions, including FBI Director Robert Mueller, the CIA, the military, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, the head of the Justice Department's National Security Division, the Director of National Intelligence, and your mom (unless she's a U.S. senator).
    8. A group of 26 retired generals and admirals wrote a letter to the Senate saying the provisions "reduce the options available to our Commander-in-Chief to incapacitate terrorists," and will "do more harm than good." The Senate obviously ignored them.
    9. According to Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), who opposes indefinite detention of U.S. citizens, an American can be deemed a "terrorist" after just one hearing. Finally, the government promises to work efficiently on something.
    10. Sen. Mark Udall (D-CO) tried to kill the provision on indefinite detention with an amendment that required Congressional review of these brand-new military detention powers, but his effort failed 60 votes to 38.
    11. All the Republican senators supported the provisions except for Paul and Sen. Mark Kirk (R-IL).
    12. Former Vice President Dick Cheney was in attendance for the vote on behalf of the waterboarding lobby. Every time he heard the words "indefinite detention," he got an erection.
    13. None of this stuff will ever affect people who are innocent of terrorism-related crimes, unless the government wrongly accuses them.
    14. As pointed out by Salon columnist Glenn Greenwald, the provision dispenses with Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution, which provides that nobody can be punished for treason without heightened due process requirements being met." Goodbye, Art. 3 Sec. 3! Send our regards to the 4th, 8th, and 14th Amendments.
    15. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), one of the provisions' most vocal supporters, put it this way to the New York Times: "Citizens who are suspected of joining Al Qaeda are opening themselves up 'to imprisonment and death ... And when they say, "I want my lawyer," you tell them: "Shut up. You don't get a lawyer. You are an enemy combatant, and we are going to talk to you about why you joined Al Qaeda."'" Shut up, fool! Lindsey Graham hates it when you talk.
    16. Some of the senators who passed this shit don't really know what they are talking about when they talk about "enemy combatants" and their status under existing law.
    17. President Barack Obama has stated he'll veto the provisions because they would "raise serious and unsettled legal questions and would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets." They're also confusing.
    18. The provisions will militarize America even further and—in Graham's words—"basically say[s] in law for the first time that the homeland is part of the battlefield." Your backyard is a microcosm of the war on terror. Just think of that every time you host a barbecue.
    19. They could disappear from the NDAA if the House and Senate conferees who meet in conference committee this week decide to get rid of them.
    20. Texas Republicans have somehow worked sex with animals into all this.

    Now for the good news: Greenwald at Salon says none of this indefinite detention without a lawyer stuff changes the status quo that much. It only codifies what's already been happening in the U.S. for the past few years. So you've been living under these conditions for a while now, but look—you're still not in jail. Just be more careful about what sorts of opinions on the government you post on Twitter, and don't say anything nice about Al Qaeda, and you'll be fine.
    Slippin' on my red dress, putting on my make-up

  6. #21
    Join The Resistance Barbarella's Avatar
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    Why the fuck isn't this all over the news? I've seen it mentioned ONCE on MSNBC last week before it passed.

  7. #22
    Oy, Anonymous freaks me out. But c'mon people. I've left messages with one of my Senators (Cornyn) and have yet to even receive a message back. Write your Senators! Call them! Demand answers!

  8. #23

    Petition to IMPEACH ALL Senators who Voted for "U.S. is a Battlefield" and to detain

    Protect your rights.

    Quote, "Petition to IMPEACH ALL Senators who Voted for "U.S. is a Battlefield" and to detain U.S. Citizens without trial

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/892/p...izens-without/

    -----------------------
    National Defense Authorization Act. (Liberty end)
    congress.org ^ | 11/29/11 | Cathedra

    Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:55:39 AM by Broker

    Under the ‘worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial’ provision of S.1867, the National Defense Authorization Act bill, which is set to be up for a vote on the Senate floor this week, the legislation will “basically say in law for the first time that the homeland is part of the battlefield,” said Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), who supports the bill.

    The bill was drafted in SECRET by Senators Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.), before being passed in a closed-door committee meeting without any kind of hearing. The language appears in sections 1031 and 1032 of the NDAA bill.

    -----------------
    The New National Defense Authorization Act Is Ridiculously Scary
    David Seaman, Credit Card Outlaw | Nov. 30, 2011,

    Fellow entrepreneurs, Americans, anyone who still cares about this country at all -- this is a must read: By the end of this week, the US government very likely will have the power to lock up US citizens for life at Guantanamo Bay or other military prisons -- without charge and without trial. This means that, in the near future, a controversial Twitter post, attending a peaceful protest, or publishing an anti-Congress critique or anti-TSA rant on Google+ could land you "indefinite detention" for life, in the wording of the bill. No access to a lawyer, no access to trial.

    Yes, you read that right. This would target American citizens, on American soil. Military personnel would be able to come into your house like something out of a Tom Clancy novel and chopper your innocent self down to Guantanamo Bay for life.

    Details: There is a scary provision in the National Defense Authorization Act (fiscal year 2012) which is typically passed by Congress each and every year to continue funding our military operations around the world.

    This provision is not a mistake or error; it has vocal backing from some of the most powerful Senators in Washington, including Sen. John McCain and Sen. Carl Levin.

  9. #24
    Ugggggghhhhhhh Octopussy's Avatar
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    The Feds have been merging threads again.

  10. #25
    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    Rachel Maddow weighs in on a speech Obama made regarding this bill

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  12. #27
    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    The army is hiring 'internment/settlement/relocation' specialists.

    Internment/Resettlement (I/R) Specialists in the Army are primarily responsible for day-to-day operations in a military confinement/correctional facility or detention/internment facility. I/R Specialists provide rehabilitative, health, welfare, and security to U.S. military prisoners within a confinement or correctional facility; conduct inspections; prepare written reports; and coordinate activities of prisoners/internees and staff personnel.

    Some of your duties as an Internment/Resettlement Specialist may include:

    Assist with the supervision and management of confinement and detention operations
    Provide external security to confinement/corrections facilities or detention/internment facilities
    Provide counseling and guidance to individual prisoners within a rehabilitative program
    Prepare or review reports and records of prisoners/internees and programs
    im not even going to get into fema camps and what not, but clearly this bill isn't for the "what ifs". They already have plans to detain American citizens. This is just all so fucked up. SO.FUCKED.UP.
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  13. #28
    Tens Across the Board Banjee's Avatar
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    This is terrible terrible terrible. How different is it from the Patriot Act? I thought that we could indefinitely detain terrorist suspects since 2002. Is it the PA expired and Obama's resigning it?

  14. #29
    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    Found this post that highlighted some of the differences between the PA and sections of the NDAA on an OWS forum

    Some say that the addition of 1031(e) excludes Americans. That there is nothing to worry about. That isn't true.

    Section 1031(e) provides " Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States."

    Sounds good right? As Graham says, and reassures, "we aren't changing the law. Nothing in the bill is inconsistent with existing law."

    Not so fast. Graham gave himself away. He claims this bill (which he contends allows indefinite detention of Americans for acts in the US) is consistent with the Supreme Court's Padilla decision. Hmmmmm.

    But the Padilla decision is anethema to conservatives. The Bush administration grabbed American citizen Padilla (in the US) before the FBI could, and stuck him in a naval brig in South Carolina.

    After three years in a naval brig (the first two with no access to a lawyer), Padilla got to the Supreme Court. The Court ordered that Padilla not be held in a military brig and tried in federal court. He was convicted in a jury trial.

    But conservatives hate this decision. Which leads to the question - why does Graham contend that his bill is consistent with a Padilla decision that opened the legal door for Padillas release from the brig? They seem contradictory.

    In Padilla, the court only ordered Padilla released because President Bush had not been authorized by Congress to have the military detain American citizens for acts away from a combat zone as enemy combatants. So the Padilla decision depends on the fact that no such Congressional approval for military detention was given. But it opens the door to such detention under a different set of facts.

    NDAA and passage of 1031 will give Congressional approval to the President to have the military detain American citizens who committed act away from combat zones as enemy combatants (which closes the loophole that sprung Padilla).

    But the bill goes further. Padilla engaged in conspiracy to commit terror. Under this bill, even "substantial support" for forces associated with terrorists can be detained by the military. That vaguely worded phrase is well short of conspiracy.

    Worse still, those deciding what constitutes substantial would be military personnel. Not judges, not lawyers, maybe not even college grads.

    This deprives American citizens of their Constitutional right to a jury trial for offenses committed within the US far from an actual combat zone when civilian courts are working perfectly well.
    and a simple google search will lead you to millions of results listing out why this is worse, what the differences are etc.
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  15. #30
    Tens Across the Board Banjee's Avatar
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    The War Against Terror has become the perpetual, forever war of dystopian fiction.

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