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Thread: The Beekeeper

  1. #1951
    Senior Member Carey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yo Jupiter View Post
    I absolutely adore Jamaica Inn. I don't care if the lyrics are not exactly Pele/Scarlet-level. The emotion is so there. And I think the production just adds up to the whole sadness wrapped in ribbons concept of the album. I also love how it transports me to a beach, and I can picture Tori sitting in a chair on a terrace (in a pretty flowy dress!) and singing this while the palm trees sway in the wind. I don't think I'd change a thing in the song.

    The above also applies to Martha's Foolish Ginger and Goodbye Pisces.
    Goodbye Pisces is often included among her worst songs, maybe not so unfairly since it's a bit cheesy, but I have a soft spot for it, especially because I'm into astrology.

    This version is so sweet and good:



    It sounds a bit like a japanese folk song meets Tear in your hand, it's both sad and silly, like she's mocking her own heartaches, it's like saying: "Ok, all this love drama is getting ridiculous". The nursery ryme structure remarks how those sentimental dynamics are so reiterated that they became a running gag. Since Pisces' dark side is emotional victimism, I read the title as "goodbye to my victimist self".
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell. I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days."

  2. #1952
    Some of the songs on this record are incredibly well-written from a standpoint of lyrics/melody/general structure. I think if they'd made some different choices with Witness in the studio, it would be a lot more well-regarded.
    "See everything as an illusion, and enjoy it even though you are not of it."
    ~Alanis Morissette, paraphrased

  3. #1953
    Cosmic Flavor Yo Jupiter's Avatar
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    Goodbye Pisces is brilliant imo. I think I've kinda analyzed why I think so in its SOTW thread. Even the production is just as it should be for everything to convey the message. Ironically I used to hate it before it really hit me. Understandable that people don't like it, it does sound pretty elevatory when listening more casually and not reading too much into it. Quite possible that I'm actually reading more into it than there is, but hey
    Не може со обични зборови да ја домами необичноста, зашто и необичните си имаат секој свој пат и тешко се среќаваат.

  4. #1954
    and it sounds like all our lives Kari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Markness View Post
    Some of the songs on this record are incredibly well-written from a standpoint of lyrics/melody/general structure. I think if they'd made some different choices with Witness in the studio, it would be a lot more well-regarded.
    I agree! I looooove the bridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yo Jupiter View Post
    Goodbye Pisces is brilliant imo. I think I've kinda analyzed why I think so in its SOTW thread. Even the production is just as it should be for everything to convey the message. Ironically I used to hate it before it really hit me. Understandable that people don't like it, it does sound pretty elevatory when listening more casually and not reading too much into it. Quite possible that I'm actually reading more into it than there is, but hey
    I actually love Goodbye Pisces. I find it very moving even if it does veer into saccharine.

  5. #1955
    See though, here's the thing about "Jamaica Inn". It was supposed to sound like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Akira View Post
    The quiet desperation in Jamaica Inn really gets to me.
    "I wake up to find the pirates have come" breaks my heart. The pillaging, the cliffs of rock, the younger woman - there's so much sadness buried in the song.
    And instead, it sounds like this:


    Quote Originally Posted by Yo Jupiter View Post
    I also love how it transports me to a beach, and I can picture Tori sitting in a chair on a terrace (in a pretty flowy dress!) and singing this while the palm trees sway in the wind.
    This, by the way, is not a dig on anyone's idea of what makes the song work - both your descriptions sound lovely. But the actual song just misses the mark for me, in terms of what it's trying to convey and what actually comes through.

  6. #1956
    Robbing the muse... Beelust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Neutral View Post
    But the actual song just misses the mark for me, in terms of what it's trying to convey and what actually comes through.
    I agree that Jamaica Inn feels like it is going to go somewhere and then doesn't.

    But I think many of her songs since the 90s are not as grand as her 90s songs and perhaps "miss the mark", particularly on TBK, ADP & AATS. There are no Winters, Anastasias, Sneezes, Jackie's, Sparks etc. Many of her 90s songs have interesting bridges, codas and epic choruses and the songs build, there are breaths and silences and generally they are very layered - you get lost in the song. But her songs have been rather simplistic the past decade compared to what came before. I sometimes wonder if she writes songs thinking of how she will perform them live - rather than just creating freely in the studio.

    From later albums, I think Fearlessness & Winter's Carol are epic and I think are very well crafted. Songs like Wedding Day though I feel had more potential - I feel like she was trying to make an epic song like Jackie's Strength but did not quite get there.

    LOL - this probably makes no sense whatsoever...
    Last edited by Beelust; 03-06-2017 at 11:02 PM.
    Robbing the muse...

  7. #1957
    Got my eye on you Octopussy's Avatar
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    I agree with Alpha but I will use pictorial examples

    "When you write Jamaica Inn...."

    Expectation:


    Reality:
    Last edited by Octopussy; 03-06-2017 at 11:04 PM.

  8. #1958
    Senior Member lucille's Avatar
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    Just how many songs does she have about unhappily married women??

    I think part of her creative decline is that Husband is present throughout a song's creation, so I imagine she often feels the need to muffle or obfuscate the message, or not follow the true emotional path of the work, in order to keep the peace.

    It must be a strange and delicate situation, but it's definitely affected her output. The closest she's got IMO to the catharsis of her 90s work is Shattering Sea (when she was working outside of the normal setup) with the most blunt expression being Wild Way - though I feel that song stops just as its getting started. Difficult for a songwriter who drew largely from personal experience to maintain a balance between artistic honesty and domestic harmony. The strain is audible to me.

    Do I want her to get divorced? That's none of my business. But the sheer amount of (not even thinly veiled) Husband hating songs is... something.
    Last edited by lucille; 03-07-2017 at 01:30 AM.

  9. #1959
    I'm pretty sure he said "Killdren". Stone's Avatar
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    We could accompany her by writing our own husband hating songs. I know he ain't that popular among some fans.

    Actually, that's not such a crazy idea. Let's take an obvious I Hate My Husband song and turn it into a "free-to-express-self Tori" version of sorts.

  10. #1960
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    Honestly Jamaica Inn live is one of my favourite Tori songs. I used to hate the production on the studio version, but I actually have come to quite enjoy it as a "sunny" version of the song. My favourite versions actually come from the 05 tour, I love the combination of the organ and the lush piano arrangement. The main piano riff is gorgeous and is as beautiful to me as the main piano riff in Cooling.

  11. #1961
    Got my eye on you Octopussy's Avatar
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    I can't imagine Tori would stay with Mark, even in a business relationship, if she was constantly unhappy. Putting marriage insecurities in a song is what married songwriters do.

    I also think people assume that songs are about Mark, when they might not be. Goodbye Pisces is about communication breakdown more than "Goodbye husband" imo. Mother Revolution is probably about the govt. I have no idea what Orange Knickers is really about because she has like 5 explanations for it.

  12. #1962
    I honestly feel like The Beekeeper is one of her most emotionally accessible works. It wasn't that long ago that I had the album on whilst doing something else and some of the songs truly hit home. "Parasol," "Jamaica Inn," "Martha's Foolish Ginger," "Goodbye Pisces" and even freaking "Ribbons Undone" stand out to me as some of her... well, I don't know. I find the emotion encapsulated in those songs almost painfully raw. Something – for better or for worse – was different with this, there is a rather nourishing, caring and all-around maternal sentiment to most of the album. Yet there is a trace of worry and insecurity underneath it all. It seems to me that the struggle of maintaining protection of something one holds sacred has taken the place of self-empowered fierceness through desperation as its driving force.

    I can see why some regard this a rather displeasing departure in stylistic terms, but whatever she had set out to do with this album ended up marvellously well in my opinion. Up to this day I find myself going back to The Beekeeper a lot more than most of her other highly regarded works. Whereas the experience with those is indeed quite cathartic, I still can't help but feel like there is something missing (a reassuring pat on the shoulder perhaps?). The Beekeeper offers that warm, maternal embrace that somehow makes it all seem not that bad after all...

    Sorry if I'm not making sense.

  13. #1963
    Robbing the muse... Beelust's Avatar
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    I don't think I have a problem with Tori putting out 1 bad album with atrocious artwork, either The Beekeeper or ADP or AATS after her amazing run of records from LE through SW. I think my issue is that Tori released 3 mediocre/poor albums in a row (include TOAL and MWG and that is 4 - 5 crap albums).

    If she had released Night of Hunters in 2007 after The Beekeeper, and then Geraldines in 2009 - I think I would be quite happy with her catalogue. The Beekeeper would then have been a change in sound like her other albums and then she would have moved on to something else.

    In other words, I think TBK is sometimes regarded more poorly partially because of all the clunkers that happened after it. If TBK was not your thing and you were waiting for a new sound in 2007 - you got Yo George, Big Wheel and FAAAAT SLUUUUTT. Her sound and lyrical content is similar for all 3 albums - they are all a hodge podge of the same issues, none of the 3 is focussed like SW and albums before. The album titles also turn me off from wanting to listen. If ADP had a more unified sound of only one or 2 dolls, and if AATS were edited - I think I would like TBK more - appreciate it more in her cannon of songs. TBK would be fondly remembered as that motherly / flowery / sunshiny / garden album... but instead I see it as the album where things went wrong.

    Revising the tracklists, album titles, artwork and imagining better production on the other albums - would perhaps shine a light on TBK blip

    'Candy Lies' - Tori Amos - 2007
    Miracle / Bouncing Off Clouds / Digital Ghost / Girl Disappearing / Father's Son / Code Red / Roosterspur Bridge / Beauty Of Speed / Almost Rosey / Smokey Joe / Dragon



    'The Jealous Kind' - Tori Amos - 2009
    Give / Welcome To England / Flavor / Curtain Call / That Guy / Abnormally Attracted To Sin / Starling / Fast Horse / Ophelia / Lady In Blue


    'Before Genesis' - Tori Amos - 2005
    Parasol / Jamaica Inn / Sleeps with Butterflies / General Joy / Mother Revolution / Original Sinsuality / The Beekeeper / Martha's Foolish Ginger / Goodbye Pisces / Marys of the Sea / Toast / Garlands
    Last edited by Beelust; 03-07-2017 at 03:47 PM.
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  14. #1964
    Senior Member lucille's Avatar
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    TBK will always be besmirched for me by Ireland - even if I remove/skip it, I know its still there...every time she sings the word SAAB, a fairy dies.

  15. #1965
    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    We could accompany her by writing our own husband hating songs. I know he ain't that popular among some fans.

    Actually, that's not such a crazy idea. Let's take an obvious I Hate My Husband song and turn it into a "free-to-express-self Tori" version of sorts.
    Like Obama's Anger Translator.

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