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Thread: Science versus skeptical fuckwits: the vaccination thread

  1. #1
    condemned to wires and hammers ebby's Avatar
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    Science versus skeptical fuckwits: the vaccination thread

    Discuss.

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    she said destroy Lágnætti's Avatar
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    The actress who played Blossom (ugh) is a total fucking crackpot, even by vapid Hollywood actressy standards. Anti-vaccination, anti-teaching her kids to say 'please' and 'thank you', vociferously anti any kind of therapy for her likely developmentally delayed kids, heavily into homeopathy and anti-pain relief because childbirth is natchural and promoting all this through some typically noxious, lackwitted organisation with 'Moms' in the title. Orac has the full story

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    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    incoming shitstorm maybe...

    BUT OK. I am not anti vaccine or anything, but I do wonder if the US shouldn't be offering 36 of them before the age of 5, while it seems the rest of the world, except South Korea, does around 11-13 vaccines before the age of 5. I think a lot of parents choose to be anti- vaccine when really they should be opting for less or differently parsed schedules.

    We dont know the cause of Autism yet, but I am suspicious that ridiculous amounts of vaccines with heavy metals and/or human dna being injected into young bodies may be a slight factor in it. If you refer to "table 3" of this pdf shows number of vaccines given to children vs autism rates. South Korea which is not on the table gives 36 vaccines before the age of 5 and they have a 1 in 38 autism rate. While it's 1 in 100 in the US.

    Again, I am not by any means anti vaccine, I give my children vaccines, just on a different schedule. But come ON. There's also a special federal court for vaccine injuries and all the records are sealed and payouts are made for damages. WTF? What am I supposed to think??
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    CMYK>RGB Stephanie's Avatar
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    Yea we're on track for vaccines and we haven't had anywhere near 35. 11-13 sounds about right. We're in Canada.

  5. #5
    she said destroy Lágnætti's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, a link to a pdf of junk science from Jenny Idiot Actress McCarthy's 'Generation Rescue' website does not a persuasive argument make. I also can't believe anyone apart from utter cranks are still making the VACCINES = AUTISM OR WORSE argument after that creep Wakefield was absolutely destroyed both scientifically, professionally and legally over it. There was never any link. Wakefield was an horribly unethical quack who performed disgusting experiments on kids without seeking consent and was working for US lawyers looking for massive payouts for alleged vaccine damage. His interest was only ever in money and he still rides the cash wagon by encouraging US-based idiots to think of him as a maverick scientist fighting Teh System when the fact is he's responsible for the deaths of more children through communicable diseases that he's ever likely saved. The British gutter press, with their usual talent for hysteria, fact-mangling and total scientific illiteracy ran with his MMR bullshit during a particularly long, slow news period and we're STILL dealing with the fallout - both in terms of total lack of understanding about what vaccination is and does and in terms of losing herd immunity within the population leading to outbreaks of horrible, entirely preventable illnesses that kill and disable children today.

    The first table I looked at in that PDF contains a huge and extremely obvious logical error; equating correlation with causation. It tries to suggest a causal link between number of vaccines and under-five mortality by placing two actually unrelated pieces of information (number of vaccines and general infant mortality) together. Infant mortality is from any number of causes, including shitty pre and post natal care due to lack of a fair and accessible to all healthcare system, parental abuse, illness from communicable and congenital disease, accidents and other causes, many related to poverty. We are presented with no data about causes of death, yet the obvious implication is that children who receive many vaccines are at a higher risk of death before age 5. It's so obviously a manouvre aimed at those unskilled in critical analysis or reading data on the simplest level it makes my head spin at the mendacity, wilfull ignorance and frankly, rank emotive desperation behind it.

    As for 'heavy metals', by which I suspect you mean thirmesol preservative in some vaccines - this was settled years ago with British, European and Japanese studies (ones that appeared in actual respected peer-reviewed journals as opposed to crank journals) that assessed rates of diagnosis of autism in children across entire populations - compare to Wakefield's sample group of, oh, seven or so kids -vaccinated before thirmesol was removed from vaccines and for years afterwards. There was no statisically significant difference in rates found in any of them. Not that this stops parents from subjecting their children to dangerous 'chelation' therapy, which istelf has resulted in deaths. All current research into autism suggests a strong genetic component, I believe. Clearly this isn't going to go down well with the idiots who have harnessed their pique at producing slightly ddefective offpsring to the anti-vaccine wagon for so long and so hard that to admit they were wrong would amount to a almost total loss of idenity and purpose, but never mind.
    Last edited by Lágnætti; 02-23-2012 at 07:43 PM.

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    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    Oh i did NOT know i linked to Jenny McCarthy shit but it's just as well, I spose. I wasnt referring to the article tough, just the graph which lists its sources at the bottom of the pdf.

    I'd still like to know why some countries seem to be doing just fine with 1/3rd less vaccinations, and why we have to get so many. I've asked doctors and they can't tell me why the US has so many. You'd think that answer would be readily available, if not common knowledge if it was so important.
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    Sleeps to dream entropy's Avatar
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    According to my records, my kid has been stuck with a needle 20 times. She has had double on some because according to USA standards, they did a few too close together in Colombia. She is now 7, in the second grade and completely in compliance with Indiana state law.

  8. #8
    she said destroy Lágnætti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frangipani View Post
    Oh i did NOT know i linked to Jenny McCarthy shit but it's just as well, I spose. I wasnt referring to the article tough, just the graph which lists its sources at the bottom of the pdf.
    At first I thought it was the anti-abortion group (mixed it up with Operation Rescue) and though NO WAY, so I googled to make sure and found the McCarthy thing. I hate that stupid woman, I really do.

    I'd still like to know why some countries seem to be doing just fine with 1/3rd less vaccinations, and why we have to get so many. I've asked doctors and they can't tell me why the US has so many. You'd think that answer would be readily available, if not common knowledge if it was so important.
    It would probably require digging into scientific papers, many of which are sadly pay-only access, which annoys me greatly. Your federal health/drug org.thing might provide some helpful data though, perhaps?

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    whack ass bitch forever Autumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frangipani View Post
    I'd still like to know why some countries seem to be doing just fine with 1/3rd less vaccinations, and why we have to get so many. I've asked doctors and they can't tell me why the US has so many. You'd think that answer would be readily available, if not common knowledge if it was so important.
    I admit my knowledge is limited in this area, but aren't the effects of measles, mumps, hepetitis, diptheria, smallpox, etc. already readily available, and isn't that reason enough to get vaccinated against them? What does the U.S. require that other countries don't that you find excessive? I've never really thought about the number of them that we get and if it's too much or not. I've struggled with not wanting to get my daughter vaccinated, but she's had all vaccines required. She's also had the varicella and HPV vaccine, neither of which are required, but I felt that they were a good precaution. (She got chicken pox anyway, btw!)

    The only vaccine we avoid is the flu shot. Totally unnecessary, IMO.

  10. #10
    authentic hotdog cart vendor Frangipani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julius ebola View Post
    At first I thought it was the anti-abortion group (mixed it up with Operation Rescue) and though NO WAY, so I googled to make sure and found the McCarthy thing. I hate that stupid woman, I really do.
    When ever I have any questions about vaccines the doctors always wave their arms around and start yelling about Jenny McCarthy, cursing the day she was born and such. But these same doctors express blatant disappointment that people don't trust them anymore. And it's not that I dont trust them, but I should get to ask questions without them being totally fucking pissed about it. Why so defensive, doc? (no get their side, but STILL, you wanna rush me through shooting up my kids and not even answer a couple of questions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn View Post
    What does the U.S. require that other countries don't that you find excessive?

    The only vaccine we avoid is the flu shot. Totally unnecessary, IMO.
    20 more shots to vaccinate against the exact same things.

    It was recommended by my doctor when I was pregnant with my first & second child that I get the swine flue vaccine or whatever epidemic we were fending off that year. I went into the pharmacist to get it and three of the staff pharmacists all sort of freaked out and told me not to get the vaccine in a way that was all "we can't blatantly tell you not to do this if your doctor orders it but we really think you shouldnt". So I didnt. This happened with both pregnancies in two states 3000 miles away from each other.
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  11. #11
    Not epic but colossal. anj's Avatar
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    was it the whooping cough shot? i was asked about 3 different times (by my doctor as well as nurses at the hospital) if i wanted that shot because whooping cough is making a comeback and is very bad for babies.

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  12. #12
    whack ass bitch forever Autumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frangipani View Post
    20 more shots to vaccinate against the exact same things.
    Yes, I'm asking what those "exact same things" are. I'm curious. I haven't done the research, so I thought I'd ask. But I suppose I could look it up myself!

    It was recommended by my doctor when I was pregnant with my first child that I get the swine flue vaccine or whatever epidemic we were fending off that year. I went into the pharmacist to get it and three of the staff pharmacists all sort of freaked out and told me not to get the vaccine in a way that was all "we can't blatantly tell you not to do this if your doctor orders it but we really think you shouldnt". So I didnt. This happened with both pregnancies in two states 3000 miles away from each other.
    Yeah, I would never get a flu shot, especially while pregnant.

    ETA: Oooh, when we lived in Nevada, my daughter had to get the Hep A shot, which is not required by the U.S., but it is required by certain states. That's because the cases of Hep A are higher in Nevada, due to the high Pacific Islander population. Only some states require it, apparently, because she didn't have to have it in Kansas, and we were way behind schedule once we moved to Nevada. I think they recommend getting it at agte 4, and she didn't have it until like age 7 or 8. I don't know why I'm sharing that, but there you go!
    Last edited by Autumn; 02-23-2012 at 08:57 PM.

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    safely on a cloud tully's Avatar
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    Do you mean boosters, Frangi? I know that many vaccines are given in series of shots -- are they not adminstered that way in other countries?

    I've never gotten a flu shot and I don't think I ever will.
    ... here i am!

  14. #14
    she said destroy Lágnætti's Avatar
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    ^That seems quite irresponsible of the pharmacists to me. Pregnant women were the main fatalities of the swine flu thing - over here at least. Something about pregnancy seemed to make women ultra-vulnerable to the virus compared to almost every other group. I don't recall any casualities of the swine flu vaccine amongst the same group.

    but aren't the effects of measles, mumps, hepetitis, diptheria, smallpox, etc. already readily available, and isn't that reason enough to get vaccinated against them?
    Having suffered through measles, chicken pox (at age 24, leaving me some lovely scars and almost two years of post-viral fatigue into the bargain), mumps (a very severe case at age 14) and whooping cough at age three, I'd tell anyone with a child not in a known risk group (who should be medically excluded by doctors anyway) to get them for their kids. Mumps is one of the most painful things I've experienced and it can result in deafness for the lucky few.

    Mumps and chicken pox vaccines weren't available when I was a kid, and I was sadly excluded from a full vaccination routine for a few years by my GPs due to having eczema (an auto immune disrorder) so missed out on the measles and whooping cough ones which resulted in my contracting the diseases. I actually didn't suffer too much from the whooping cough according to my mother, but I did pass it on to my grandmother, who was born in 1904, was obviously unvaccinated and suffered terribly for weeks with it, eventually acquiring to some kind of internal damage from it. Meanwhile, my great-grandmother died at age 28 from measles-caused mengititis, a rare but usually fatal complication of the disease.

    Luckily the doctors stopped being paranoid by the time I reached my teens and I was allowed to have the rubella jab, my tetanus and polio boosters but I wish I could have had all of them. I'm definitely getting the shingles vaccine when I'm in the right age group becauser I saw my dad go through that in his fifties. It was horribly painful and disfiguring, left him with years of severe neuralgia and a badly scarred cornea (he had it on his head and it got into his right eye), requiring a transplant to save his sight in that eye. He's going to have to have that corneal transplant done for a second time soon. Anyone who thinks chicken pox is harmless needs to look down the road at what shingles can do to you.

  15. #15
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    I always get the flu vaccine, but diabetics are supposed to. I have a dear friend who is very anti flu-vaccine and not particularly fond of Western medicine in general. We tend to avoid these topics.

    Questioning individual vaccines is one thing, but being anti-vaccination in general is nuts. It's child abuse, and it endangers more kids than just the ones not being vaccinated. Jenny McCarthy belongs in the same category as global warming deniers: idiots whose idiocy is dangerous.
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