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Thread: so you want an ak-47: unfs gun control or lack thereof party thread

  1. #1336
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncanny hats View Post
    The Dems in the house are actually sitting in and occupying the floor until they are allowed to vote on the gun control measures.
    I'm really frustrated because I can't find any video, but a couple of them were actually talking about tweaking the watch list so that due process can be taken into consideration. I agree that as it stands, the watch list is just as full of holes as the Patriot Act. It doesn't have to be that way.

  2. #1337
    Strangerer Rum 509's Avatar
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    The House majority called a recess and all the cameras were turned off, what a surprise. There was a feed through Periscope.tv but I couldn't get it to work.

  3. #1338
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    So... did you read my post?
    To sum up; you think suspected airplane terrorists should be protected so they can bear arms, because of the constitution, and also to prevent racism because Google tells you so. I reacted quite directly.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  4. #1339
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Right. What I actually said is that suspending the protected rights of individuals without due process is a bad idea (and would be in any society), and that sensible gun control, something which I think America sorely needs, ought to be achieved via policy. But if you want to continue the ad absurdum argument, please, let me find you some straw to help you fashion a vaguely bipedal shape.

  5. #1340
    Senior Member uncanny hats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum 509 View Post
    The House majority called a recess and all the cameras were turned off, what a surprise. There was a feed through Periscope.tv but I couldn't get it to work.
    Which is one of those WTF GOP moments? And CSPAN is using the periscope.

  6. #1341
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but when someone takes that second amendment seriously, particularly its current interpretation, and actually believes all or most civilians actually deserve the right to bear arms in this day and age, my respect for what that person has to say about guns flies out the window. It is an antique piece of legislation, referring to a particular circumstance from over two hundred years ago (the need for organized militias as substitute for a proper army), and it should have gone the way of the 18th amendment long ago. Unlike the rest of the bill of rights, it has no correspondent in other democratic constitutions in the 21st century. The universal right to bear arms is a fallacy put together by the gun industry; it's not a true civil right. So basically, while the no fly list can be problematic due to improper selection, as pretty much everyone needs to fly at some point in their lives, not allowing people access to guns based on it isn't a problem, since actually no civilian should have easy access to guns to begin with.

  7. #1342
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Right. What I actually said is that suspending the protected rights of individuals
    Correction; you said not "individuals", but something like "brown people and people with foreign names" which you believe is the cause of them being on the list, while I believe the list was constructed by terrorism specialist analysts who suspect them of future terrorist attacks. We agree though that people can be wrongly on said list. "Anecdotal Google evidence" turned up that it can be as simple as an FBI agent ticking the wrong box (cumbersome, though not very racist).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    without due process is a bad idea (and would be in any society),
    We're not talking about suspending ALL rights, just one very specific one, because of new developments in society.

    You didn't react to that there are only very few American citizens on that list. If 5% is unjustly on that list, about 40 actual USA citizens would be "impaired without due process" by not being able to buy a gun. That is less than the people than that were shot in Orlando, for example.

    People unjustly on the list have bigger problems than not being able to buy a gun, because they are on a fucking terrorist watchlist. The last thing a sane person would want to do in that position is to buy a gun. Also, I don't think it should be public information exactly why someone is on such a list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    and that sensible gun control, something which I think America sorely needs, ought to be achieved via policy.
    Do you see that happening any time soon? Those processes are extremely slow. Until then, I think everything in power should be done to keep guns away from terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    But if you want to continue the ad absurdum argument, please, let me find you some straw to help you fashion a vaguely bipedal shape.
    Not pretending that the list is an ultimate solution to all problems, nor that I have a complete solution. I just think the less guns, the better. Disrespect me all you want ad vexo, I've studied the history of religious terrorism extensively, and I know when I have a good reason for mortal fear.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  8. #1343
    the druthers Mordecai's Avatar
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    To quote noted Supreme Court dead asshole Antonin Scalia, in the grotesque Heller decision which nonetheless admitted that there are limits to rights:

    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
    I don't see what in the 2nd Amendment or its recent interpretation/expansion prevents Congress from imposing new "conditions and qualifications" for gun sales, like not appearing on an FBI terror list, not being a domestic abuser, not being mentally ill, etc.

  9. #1344
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    I agree. We don't need to get rid of the Second Amendment. Another thing it doesn't forbid: making shit like AR-15s illegal for civilian use.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  10. #1345
    worth a million in prizes .chris's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see the Democrats grew a spine. Yeah, the sit-in is all political theatre, but it gets the media attention on an important issue and puts pressure on the GOP. We need to see more of this.

    Hilarious that Paul Ryan thinks in this day and age simply shutting down the cameras in the House is going to block any footage of the protest getting out.

  11. #1346
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    They're still there.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  12. #1347
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Correction; you said not "individuals", but something like "brown people and people with foreign names"
    Am I mistaken in believing that those people are individuals?

    which you believe is the cause of them being on the list, while I believe the list was constructed by terrorism specialist analysts who suspect them of future terrorist attacks. We agree though that people can be wrongly on said list. "Anecdotal Google evidence" turned up that it can be as simple as an FBI agent ticking the wrong box
    I made the point about being able to turn up lots of anecdotal evidence to differentiate from the actual Federal judgment I linked, and the actual Watchlisting Guidance produced by the National Counterterrorism Centre.

    We're not talking about suspending ALL rights, just one very specific one, because of new developments in society.
    Rights of these individuals is already impeded by being placed under surveillance without probably cause or due process, something which should concern right-minded people everywhere. Yes, we're talking about a very specific amendment to a very old document, the interpretation of which, it is fair to say, has been perverted. The whole Constitution could do with a spruce up, being as it was written hundreds of years ago by men who owned slaves and didn't let women participate in democracy, but right now it's the law of the land.

    Look at the wider picture; you have government guidelines that allow officials to arbitrarily decide which citizens deserve which rights at the click and drag of a mouse. Forget about guns for a moment; how is that right? How can that be cheered by liberal or progressive people?

    You didn't react to that there are only very few American citizens on that list. If 5% is unjustly on that list, about 40 actual USA citizens would be "impaired without due process" by not being able to buy a gun.
    Factcheck:

    The Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE), the federal government’s central repository of known and suspected international terrorists, had 1.1 million entries as of December 2013, but only 25,000 were American citizens or lawful permanent residents. The FBI’s Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB), commonly referred to as the terrorist watch list, had 800,000 entries in September 2014, but only 40,000 were U.S. citizens or lawful permanent residents.
    But cool, there's still millions more people who can buy a gun because there's still no sensible policy.

    People unjustly on the list have bigger problems than not being able to buy a gun, because they are on a fucking terrorist watchlist.
    Exactly. And once an authoritarian government begins incrementally restricting those people's rights, there's a dangerous precedent.

    Do you see that happening any time soon? Those processes are extremely slow. Until then, I think everything in power should be done to keep guns away from terrorists.
    Again, right now the definition of "terrorist" is pretty loose as far as the US government is concerned (and in the UK we have form for that, with union members and Labour politicians being monitored during the Thatcher years and beyond). I agree, gun access should be restricted, and the process is slow, but governments need to respect their own laws, otherwise all sorts of crazy shit can happen.

    A better start would be reinstating the assault weapons ban that was allowed to lapse in 2004 and work from there; further eroding civil liberties is the sort of thing these Democrats would've decried not ten years ago.

  13. #1348
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    The great trouble with being a born again Christian transgender woman is that I am aware that theologically, a Christian should neither be persecuting the LGBT community nor advocating guns. But I am also aware that now, the tables are turning against Christians in America, and they are prepared for that. None of this is all of a sudden. I now understand why someone in my position looking at all of these factors from this perspective a few years ago, with only conjecture (that's what happens when people demand hard evidence for future events) and with no one willing to take into account the existence of such a strange person or the developing reality of exactly how strange the world could get, would be driven to insanity. It is, even now, unexplainable.

    There has long been a culture of sexism which has been a war waged against femininity in all of its forms, obviously centred against mainly cisgender biological women because they for a long time were femininity - too "complicated" to change patriarchal society for. And anything apparently biologically male that deviated towards femininity - because, of course, to not identify with the unmitigated strength that is masculinity must be a deviation from masculinity, and not an expression of femininity which exists only to supplement masculinity and must be inherently inferior or else it would be in charge - was framed as weak or deficient masculinity.

    Deficient with reference to the strong norm, masculinity, which is the norm because it always has been, because men have a biological advantage which they have used to their advantage so as to manipulate what the norms are, so that they are comfortable and everyone else is forced to be or else. Anyone, female or male in denial or in deviation, who challenges that norm, gets the sharp end of "or else". If anyone expressed anything "else" that wasn't the norm, that deviation had to be culturally relegated to the realm of mental illness, comedy or derision, so as to avoid a proliferation of serious (uncontrollable) threat to the masculine norm.

    Men have been conditioned towards having to be in normative control, if necessary by aggression, in order to "win", which is a doing word at odds with the verb "love", but, similar to love, is a doing word that requires constant affirmative action. This presents in sports or in toy weaponry (which leads to a weaponised view of most things) or in group persecution by means of derision against those who are not in line with the masculine norm and who fail to accept that their lot in life is to settle for being a joke at best or conveniently silent and subjugated otherwise. This manifests literally all over the culture particularly in pornography but also in politics. The norm has now changed to be more inclusive because the world has become more interconnected, and the affluent West has been able to concentrate on ideas of empathy and sexual liberation and trying to reconcile the two. But up until we reached that point, for those who were comfortable with the preceding set of norms had cultivated the collective acceptance of a hyper-masculine, heteronormative reality which is now being shaken, much to their discomfort and attempts to project the cause of that discomfort (and the collapse of heteronormativity/rise in feminine solidarity) onto anyone other than themselves - because how can the men have possibly "lost control"? Now we have sexism becoming desperately more forceful, because of the inability of much of anything to override societal conditioning which says that men should fight, and women should take flight. Women are now fighting and men are given to flights of fancy.

    Their obsessive attempts to control everything has been the very thing that has led to a world where the inevitable failure of their authoritarianism in the face of a world recently obsessed with "sharing", making the personal political. Unable to handle such a world, they are convincing themselves that them accepting diversity has been in effect them "remaining calm", permitting a loss of control, and this has resulted in them now feeling threatened, blaming diversity and tolerance for these threats, expressing ideas of control publicly that they have been expressing privately in the absence of any legitimate threat to ideas of patriotism or masculinity, and causing those who believe in tolerance and diversity to lose sight of what is actually permissible and what is dangerous by sheer confusion and inability to focus on survival instinct because for them, survival has been a way of daily life that most men cannot possibly comprehend for a long time.

    However, other areas of the world have had no comfort or no concern for any of these lofty postmodern concepts. They have only known war and poverty. They too have recently gained access to the internet and all of its propaganda and glorified violence and they now believe that they finally have, in all of that, an answer to who has been responsible for all of the war and poverty. They can now blame what they see, because they now see it in all of its decadence, and so they blame the West. Others in the West are tired of seeing what they do not want to and feeling a loss of control, so they go and do what they have been conditioned to do, which is to blow shit up or vote for right wing candidates who will make that possibility a reality so that real life becomes one huge war game. Peace time is simply too boring for some people, and to others it is something they cannot process or deal with, because when they see someone in the West playing Call of Duty, it is indicative of a culture that has been playing Call of Duty with they and their families lives, and are continuing to train themselves using war simulators to do better in the future. It is all a matter of human beings - all of us - misunderstanding each other and taking the name of religion in vain to lessen these misunderstandings. It was all bound to blow up in all of our faces eventually. In a way humanity writes its own self-fulfilling prophecies.

    White Christian America has taken a book that says The Accuser is the ultimate threat and death is nothing to fear and they have used it to demonise femininity, accuse everyone of not being normal and wish death on them all with impunity. Now they would rather protect the democratic right to femininity from a real threat to their idea of normality that they find in radical Islam - which has all the fuel it needs in the violence that this supposed paradise is actually full of, especially when it comes to race. Unfortunately Hell hath no fury like an LGBT community repeatedly scorned, and white Christian America will have its turn to face persecution, but they are armed and will do so with zeal because the Bible tells them they will be persecuted in the End Times, and that is why they are obsessed with being armed against tyrannical government. They now have an expression of everything that they have abusively deemed to be Christian when it is actually the spirit of Antichrist - Trump - as their only option, or else, God forbid, a woman presides over war time. I said before that Hillary is a sociopath, but she would no doubt be a better tactician than Trump (an insular psychopath), and so maybe sociopathy does have its merits.

    This planet should have a satellite orbiting it with a sign saying "Welcome to Catch-22, built on original sin".

  14. #1349
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Longest post ever in Unfhistory award has been claimed.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  15. #1350
    A Matter Of How You See It Kala's Avatar
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    Why use only a few words to make your point when you can literally write hundreds? Also, Hillary is a sociopath.

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