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Thread: Apocalyptic Musings (now with extra Christ's Blood!)

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    Angry Apocalyptic Musings (now with extra Christ's Blood!)

    Well. It's just disgraces all round all of a sudden. I would go as far as to say that the deaths of the Israeli teens and that of the Palestinian teen are terrible, but if ever they needed an excuse to start bombarding the shit out of the Gaza strip again, they got it. Just as soon as Isis decided they were going to free Palestine and set up a caliphate with Jerusalem as the capital. Isis - those funded by the USA, and enabled by them due to the destruction of Iraq and Syria's border, to progress with their mission to establish this caliphate. Which occurred right about the time that the Pope met with leaders of Islam and the Orthodox church in Jerusalem.

    Meanwhile, the catholic church as well as the UK parliament are overrun with paedophiles, and it would appear there has been a systematic shredding or burning of documents for a quarter of a century to hide the latter's activities. And there is a major conflict in Europe, with Russia and China opposing the will of the US (where people keep shooting each other but need their guns for fear of their own government) and the EU, which the UK (a country which looks increasingly likely to split up) increasingly looks like it wants no membership in. Meanwhile the USA has been spying on the EU, along with everyone else, and has gotten away with it, but not really, because China was hacking the USA all along.

    So now we have the media banging on about global dispersal of Isis terrorists, who are curiously well funded and ironically using Hollywood techniques in their recruitment videos, which has resulted in people going both to and from the disaster zone of the Middle East, fuelled by hatred of the West and Israel, which Israel does little to stop by blowing the Palestinians to shit. And despite all of this spying and airport technology, the security forces of the world have failed to stop Isis militants from traveling internationally and have even failed to keep track of a great number of them. Oh, and Fukushima is probably still leading deadly radiation into the water system, and the Euphrates has quite literally been dried up by Turkey, in an eerily prophecised apocalyptic warning sign.

    I'm not a subscriber to any one organised religion in particular, but if there was ever the start of Armageddon, it is now. Maybe this world is due to end, quite frankly.

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    the druthers Mordecai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    ...caliphate with Jerusalem as the capital.

    ...Pope met with leaders of Islam and the Orthodox church in Jerusalem.

    ...catholic church as well as the UK parliament are overrun with paedophiles

    ...And there is a major conflict in Europe

    ...the UK (a country which looks increasingly likely to split up)

    ...Meanwhile the USA has been spying on the EU

    ….China was hacking the USA all along.

    ….Isis terrorists, who are curiously well funded and ironically using Hollywood techniques in their recruitment videos

    ….airport technology

    ...and Fukushima

    ...and the Euphrates has quite literally been dried up by Turkey
    And Brazil lost suspiciously horribly to the Germans! Don't forget that.

    Dude, lots of shit goes on all the fucking time. Most of this is ongoing. It's not the end of the world. (WTF is that even supposed to mean?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    And Brazil lost suspiciously horribly to the Germans! Don't forget that.

    Dude, lots of shit goes on all the fucking time. Most of this is ongoing. It's not the end of the world. (WTF is that even supposed to mean?)
    Sadly shit does happen constantly. But I think since 9\11 things have taken a particularly dark and Orwellian turn. Most people are actually aware of this, but of course it's human nature to refuse to believe things are going to happen until they actually do happen. The Chilcot enquiry was a whitewash and we are not allowed to see the letters sent between Bush and Blair. Why? It's not a matter of national security, this happened a long time ago now. There is technically an Islamic caliphate in existence in the world, today, in the 21st century. I'm not going to judge that but it's not really your average everyday shit happens scenario. The group who is working towards expanding it are very well funded and very well organised, they operate like an army, not a militia. The day after I posted my last post, Russia actually fired on a Ukrainian plane, which I think means they are now technically at war, are they not?

    The fact is that there are "crazy" people in this world - David Icke comes to mind - who says, among other more fantastic things that even I don't believe, that the ruling elite are Satanic, paedophilic, blood-drinking, child sacrificing psychopaths. Yes, it sounds like the insane product of a warped and deluded mind. But right in front of our very eyes, it is quite obvious and true that the British parliament and other institutions of the world, including the Catholic Church, which is very into ritual and is the richest institution in the world by far, are overrun with paedophiles. If that doesn't amount to the ruling elite being evil harmers of children, then I really don't know how much more it would take to slap people across the face with the realisation that maybe the crazy people are not ridiculous, and maybe we have turned a blind eye to the abhorrent abuse of power and yes, organised conspiracies which have successfully been covered up for a very long time, because of our refusal to entertain the possible true extent of the corruption that is rife throughout the world, right under our noses.

    Even if you don't believe in holy books, the rich and powerful, and I mean rich to the point where money is literally no object, definitely do since it is clear that religion along with money rules the world. Your personal beliefs, along with mine and the vast majority of the population's, are irrelevant. Even if there is not a cosmic hand in world events (which I believe there must be if you remove all of the divisive labels from it, since we are, you know, part of the cosmos), there will be people who believe in holy books to the extent that they would be willing to fulfill prophecy themselves in order to procure some divine intervention. And to me, the end of the world in terms of fire, brimstone, darkened skies, death of crops and wildlife, etc. quite obviously describes the very real and present threat of nuclear war. I find it strange that Iran is being pressured to halt its nuclear weapons development while Israel is required to have no transparency about its own, and clearly over the last few weeks we have seen who is the most violent of the two nations. It is not Iran.

    The sad thing is that because of anti-Semitism, stating that truth, that Israel is responsible for war crimes, could get you labeled as a racist. As a Caucasian, western, Christian raised individual I would say that for me to believe that the bombing of Muslims (a culture which I have much less experience with and much less in common than I do the Jewish culture) should stop, makes me a racist, is just unbelievable. It makes no sense. I understand that the Jewish people have been persecuted in the past but I see Israel as a very paranoid, very powerful and very secretive nation attacking an indigenous and powerless people. Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and one single Israeli has died, today, from shrapnel wounds, at the border. This is because the dome shield which Israel has to defend them from missiles is highly effective. It has intercepted nearly ten thousand fired by Hamas successfully. So why are they not content to just stop firing at Hamas until they give up or realise that negotiations are the only way forward? The world has one simple lesson to learn, you can not stop terror by spreading terror among those you call terrorists. You can't stop war with more war. The weapons we have today are far too dangerous for us to be behaving like this, it's far too late now, though, and we are all going to destroy ourselves. Because when people tend to get themselves into a very powerful position they tend to abuse it, and that is a universal truth. That is why I believe there is corruption everywhere, and I don't even have to believe it, it is undeniable.

    Also, climate change is not going to stop any time soon. We are too late there as well.

    One more thing, I can't believe I missed this out. The prime minister of the UK has himself said that we risk returning to the "dark ages" of medicine due to the fact that antibiotics are being resisted increasingly by diseases. I think this is the pestilence that comes along with war, famine etc.
    Last edited by Zippo; 07-15-2014 at 07:21 PM.

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    the druthers Mordecai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    Sadly shit does happen constantly. But I think since 9\11 things have taken a particularly dark and Orwellian turn. Most people are actually aware of this, but of course it's human nature to refuse to believe things are going to happen until they actually do happen. The Chilcot enquiry was a whitewash and we are not allowed to see the letters sent between Bush and Blair. Why? It's not a matter of national security, this happened a long time ago now. There is technically an Islamic caliphate in existence in the world, today, in the 21st century. I'm not going to judge that but it's not really your average everyday shit happens scenario.
    I don't think there would be anything shocking in that. We know Bush/Blair were ideologues and dipshits, no?

    As far as the so-called Islamic Caliphate, it's not really anything to be too concerned about nor is it really shocking. For one thing, let's not forget that the Caliphate was abolished by Ataturk only in 1924. That's almost in living memory. Further, a caliphate is no more or less dangerous than a "presidency" or "monarchy" or "pope." What matters is the firepower and ideological pull. As it stands now, the so-called caliphate in Syria-Iraq does not appear to pose an existential threat to local powers, let alone the West. Moreover, it doesn't appear to have achieved legitimacy among fundamentalist Muslims, let alone the mass of Muslims worldwide. That's not to say they're not fucking terrible and in need of obliteration before they do something horrible. It's just not the end of the world just yet.

    The group who is working towards expanding it are very well funded and very well organised, they operate like an army, not a militia. The day after I posted my last post, Russia actually fired on a Ukrainian plane, which I think means they are now technically at war, are they not?
    Probably? But, again, Russia has been fucking with its neighbors since forever. The period of Russian weakness in the '90s is really the anomalous change. This is just return to normalacy. Not that that's a good thing.

    The fact is that there are "crazy" people in this world - David Icke comes to mind - who says, among other more fantastic things that even I don't believe, that the ruling elite are Satanic, paedophilic, blood-drinking, child sacrificing psychopaths. Yes, it sounds like the insane product of a warped and deluded mind. But right in front of our very eyes, it is quite obvious and true that the British parliament and other institutions of the world, including the Catholic Church, which is very into ritual and is the richest institution in the world by far, are overrun with paedophiles.
    You don't need ritual or great wealth or whatever. This happens routinely in families everywhere. It's called "patriarchy." Covering up abuse in churches, schools, and families is/was the norm, I think we're discovering. What's abnormal (and great!) is that people are finally speaking out against this.

    If that doesn't amount to the ruling elite being evil harmers of children, then I really don't know how much more it would take to slap people across the face with the realisation that maybe the crazy people are not ridiculous, and maybe we have turned a blind eye to the abhorrent abuse of power and yes, organised conspiracies which have successfully been covered up for a very long time, because of our refusal to entertain the possible true extent of the corruption that is rife throughout the world, right under our noses.
    Is it a conspiracy or is it just the bullshit patriarchal/racist/oppressive/cutthroat way that humans have organized society all these years? I guess you can say it's a conspiracy by the people who own and run society. But that makes it sound more self-aware than it really is.

    Even if you don't believe in holy books, the rich and powerful, and I mean rich to the point where money is literally no object, definitely do since it is clear that religion along with money rules the world. Your personal beliefs, along with mine and the vast majority of the population's, are irrelevant. Even if there is not a cosmic hand in world events (which I believe there must be if you remove all of the divisive labels from it, since we are, you know, part of the cosmos), there will be people who believe in holy books to the extent that they would be willing to fulfill prophecy themselves in order to procure some divine intervention. And to me, the end of the world in terms of fire, brimstone, darkened skies, death of crops and wildlife, etc. quite obviously describes the very real and present threat of nuclear war.
    I'm with you and totally apprehensive of nuclear war, but, really, it has nothing to do with "the end of the world" from monotheistic religion or prophecy or whatever.

    Just consider the idea that maybe the change isn't with the world but with us. Maybe it's simply the case that we in the West have had a false sense of security since the end of the Cold War and are now learning or talking more openly about the truth about all the violence that surrounds us and all the shitty garbage people who peddle that violence—pedophiles, capitalist overlords, corrupt politicians, Jihadists, dictators, the Israeli right wing, etc.
    Last edited by Mordecai; 07-15-2014 at 10:28 PM.

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    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    Since I can do shit all about whether or not humans destroy ourselves, I try not to worry about it. My job, as I see it, is to just live the best way I can: be happy and peaceful, treat people with "justice and courtesy", and do good works (mostly for other alcoholics). I think that's what my place is.

    It's funny. I feel like I really do get my philosophy of life from Angel. "If nothing we do matters, the only thing that matters is what we do."
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    I don't think there would be anything shocking in that. We know Bush/Blair were ideologues and dipshits, no?

    As far as the so-called Islamic Caliphate, it's not really anything to be too concerned about nor is it really shocking. For one thing, let's not forget that the Caliphate was abolished by Ataturk only in 1924. That's almost in living memory. Further, a caliphate is no more or less dangerous than a "presidency" or "monarchy" or "pope." What matters is the firepower and ideological pull. As it stands now, the so-called caliphate in Syria-Iraq does not appear to pose an existential threat to local powers, let alone the West. Moreover, it doesn't appear to have achieved legitimacy among fundamentalist Muslims, let alone the mass of Muslims worldwide. That's not to say they're not fucking terrible and in need of obliteration before they do something horrible. It's just not the end of the world just yet.
    This is what I was getting at by I'm not going to judge the caliphate. It certainly is no more dangerous than a presidency, or a militarised democracy, the evidence for which is the behaviour of Israel, America, the UK, Russia (covertly) etc. I totally agree that firepower and ideology is what matters, which is why I say that the average peaceful person and indeed the average peaceful Muslim have absolutely no relevance, either with their beliefs or with their protests. If you want to talk about chemical warfare, talk about the bizarrely normal use of tear gas on protesters around the world. I believe if there was ever a mass protest in America or the UK today regarding Iraq like there was initially, people would be tear gassed. This is the climate we have become accustomed to in the wake of 9/11. If, somehow, we were to attempt to obliterate a movement which has global followers, not only would we fail to do so, but we would only anger them further. Even if we succeeded, it only takes one person to survive, perceive the defeat of their movement as an evil oppression, wage a jihad, and start the whole thing over again with more intensity and more efficient weapons and communications in the future - just like how those things are vastly more efficient now than they were in the 20s. It is a different time and thus a very different beast, even if under the same name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    Probably? But, again, Russia has been fucking with its neighbors since forever. The period of Russian weakness in the '90s is really the anomalous change. This is just return to normalacy. Not that that's a good thing.
    Russia fucks with its neighbours, America fucks with the entire planet in every sense. To be fair, there is absolutely no rational reason why America should have any say whatsoever, let alone any hand, in issues such as Ukraine, the South China Sea, or the Middle East. The only reason anyone ever listened to them in the past or respected their opinion was because of their military might and also because of the dollar-based global economy, which allowed them to and currently allows them to impose economic pressure on countries such as Russia in order to promote a hegemonic vision of Planet USA. I'm afraid that will not work and it was a ridiculously arrogant idea from the beginning. The only possible instance where the US should have stepped outside of its own borders was in South America, in order to find the missing women and help those otherwise affected by the drug wars, simply because of the shared border, which everyone now talks about as if it's some kind of surprise. Nigeria should have been left to a country who understands that culture and who doesn't murder children itself with unmanned drones, like the bogeyman of countries or something. Other countries are getting tired of their shit, very rapidly, even the UK, which is why Obama has found a new lapdog in Merkel as opposed to the Bush/Blair special snowflake relationship. They were idealogues, and I hope they continue their special relationship in prison at some point, but they were not dipshits, and neither is al-Bagdhadi or Putin or anyone else. They are all very strategic and very successful at fucking up the world rather than ever conceding to their own wrongness. I believe the BRICS countries are looking to dissociate from the dollar and deal in their own currencies, along with making deals like the Russia/China gas deal. Since this would devalue the dollar, and due to the fact that the US is in astronomical amounts of debt TO China, and has restarted Cold War style tensions with Russia by continuing to meddle in everyone else's affairs, America is heading for disaster. Total disaster. Tear gas is probably the least of the worries there, with all the guns loose among even the population. This again sounds crazy but nothing can be ruled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    You don't need ritual or great wealth or whatever. This happens routinely in families everywhere. It's called "patriarchy." Covering up abuse in churches, schools, and families is/was the norm, I think we're discovering. What's abnormal (and great!) is that people are finally speaking out against this. Is it a conspiracy or is it just the bullshit patriarchal/racist/oppressive/cutthroat way that humans have organized society all these years? I guess you can say it's a conspiracy by the people who own and run society. But that makes it sound more self-aware than it really is.
    As an appreciator of literature and not of constrictive religious ideology, I find it apt to describe the Catholic church as a whore decked in pearls, scarlet, gold and purple, and holding a cup full of the sins of its own inequity. Even in mass they drink wine and call it blood. I am extremely glad that the abused are finding the courage to speak out, but I think I have to state more plainly what I was trying to get across originally: this is a very well organised conspiracy, very self-aware in its nature, involving prominent figures in all institutions, and very well hidden in the shadows, as evil is often depicted as being. Whether you call it patriarchy or bullshit or cutthroat, all of these are correct, but all of those words imply discrete, Machievallian, authoritarian tactics of manipulation and secrecy, so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    I'm with you and totally apprehensive of nuclear war, but, really, it has nothing to do with "the end of the world" from monotheistic religion or prophecy or whatever.

    Just consider the idea that maybe the change isn't with the world but with us. Maybe it's simply the case that we in the West have had a false sense of security since the end of the Cold War and are now learning or talking more openly about the truth about all the violence that surrounds us and all the shitty garbage people who peddle that violence—pedophiles, capitalist overlords, corrupt politicians, Jihadists, dictators, the Israeli right wing, etc.
    I would think that if there was a nuclear war it would definitely be the end of all life on this planet, and as far as I'm concerned that is the end of the world, and not even as we know it, just the end, plain and simple, since there is nobody left to know anything. You don't have to be hit by a nuclear bomb to die because of it, the atmosphere would be destroyed and the sun blotted out by debris and dust, without the sun there is no photosynthesis, no food chain, no animals, no people, no electrical grid, no internet, no water that is not irradiated or salty, no anything. Essentially what would be left after many, many, slow and painful years would be something that would look like Mars. The planet is technically still in existence, but it has ended. Hindsight is a beautiful thing but is not as beautiful as foresight. We have lacked foresight, and like you say, that is why we are having to change now. But the ears listen and the eyes see, having only heard and viewed, for too long. The proverb that we do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, but instead borrow it from our children, applies to all of those you listed, especially the Israeli right wing. And it is a bittersweet saying at this point. You know what the bittersweet feeling means - regret, remorse, nostalgic realisation that we had opportunities and dreams that did not become reality because we were too caught up in and distracted by other, useless shite.

    Steve, I think that is a beautiful saying, even if it is from Angel. I know I'm getting into very esoteric territory here, but I believe that just like when you have a dream you see things with your corporeal eyes being closed, and you feel things even though you really are lying in a bed, and you hear things even though the room you are in is silent, after death the perception continues. During a dream your perception is quite literally disembodied. This is why with reference to direct human experience I find it impossible to discount an afterlife. And since we live in an unbalanced world, but a balanced universe, it makes sense to me that what you do in this life does matter and if you help others or even try your best to do so then you will be raised by the scales upon departing from your body, having lowered yourself humbly throughout your life, even despite the illusion that it was the only one you had. As for the alcoholism, I am very much familiar with it first hand and to be honest, although it is something that would interfere with attempts to be humble, it is not something anyone can be blamed for. Who wouldn't want to drink in a world like that I have just described, unless they were blissfully ignorant or sheltered? With that said, to overcome or even to be in the claws of something like alcoholism and to remain closely involved with it is not only humbling and touching to hear about, it is also the mark of a very strong person. And a very good person, considering it is for altruistic reasons.

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    Senior Member JAE's Avatar
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    I can't believe you are worried about silly things like this when Eva Mendes and Ryan Gosling are having a baby.

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    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    I grew up during the Cold War. Because of the nuclear standoff between the US/UK and the Soviets, I was made to feel that I should "duck and cover" to protect myself in school. After a decade or so, I realized I was worried about stuff that might not ever happen. And it didn't. So please don't waste your time worrying when you can be getting out there and living life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy View Post
    I grew up during the Cold War. Because of the nuclear standoff between the US/UK and the Soviets, I was made to feel that I should "duck and cover" to protect myself in school. After a decade or so, I realized I was worried about stuff that might not ever happen. And it didn't. So please don't waste your time worrying when you can be getting out there and living life.
    My dad said the same thing to me. The truth is I'm not worried, because I do believe in an afterlife. I've just been convinced for a long time that this is going to happen in my lifetime, and recently it seems fast approaching. We all have to die at some point or another anyway. And the evil everywhere has even made me think that it's probably not such a bad thing.

    JAE: lol. :P

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    the druthers Mordecai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    As an appreciator of literature and not of constrictive religious ideology, I find it apt to describe the Catholic church as a whore decked in pearls, scarlet, gold and purple, and holding a cup full of the sins of its own inequity. Even in mass they drink wine and call it blood.
    I agree with like…40% of what you say…but this bit just irks me to no end, so I feel like I have to respond.

    I'm also an "appreciator of literature and not of constrictive religious ideology," and I think religious ritual in all its forms, including Catholic Holy Mass, is fucking amazing. Your statement above with the iniquity whore pearl purple whatever sounds like Puritan propaganda from the English Civil War or Seventh Day Adventism or something.

    Of course they drink Christ's blood. You sound surprised. That was Jesus's bag. To paraphrase: "This is the chalice of my blood…take and drink of it" and all that jazz. Christianity is part pagan mystery cult, right from the start, from the pen of St. Paul in the Epistles to the Gospels and on. The whole thing draws from the great symbol systems of antiquity. It's bloody great. (Still don't believe it's true, though.)

    The evil bullshit of the Catholic Church has nothing to do with ritual. Ritual is one of the few good elements in world religion. It is where we get so much of our music and art! The problem with religion is not ritual, which is this bizarre, neurotic, symbolic, experiential exercise. It's when religion attempts to be rational and then enforce that alleged rationality on the world that we run into problems. That's when you get the Wars of Religion, Protestant translators burned at the stake by Catholics, Catholic cathedrals burned to the ground by Protestants, jihad, exploding Buddha statues, female pagan philosophers murdered and raped, etc.



    I am extremely glad that the abused are finding the courage to speak out, but I think I have to state more plainly what I was trying to get across originally: this is a very well organised conspiracy, very self-aware in its nature, involving prominent figures in all institutions, and very well hidden in the shadows, as evil is often depicted as being. Whether you call it patriarchy or bullshit or cutthroat, all of these are correct, but all of those words imply discrete, Machievallian, authoritarian tactics of manipulation and secrecy, so…
    But what about the point I made about how in everyday families you see a culture of covering up rape/abuse to avoid embarrassment and shame. Is that a part of a massive conspiracy of Machiavellian proportions? Or is it just a fucked up element of patriarchal culture that is now being challenged as society opens up more about sex, the rights of children and gender equality?

    I would think that if there was a nuclear war it would definitely be the end of all life on this planet, and as far as I'm concerned that is the end of the world, and not even as we know it, just the end, plain and simple, since there is nobody left to know anything. You don't have to be hit by a nuclear bomb to die because of it, the atmosphere would be destroyed and the sun blotted out by debris and dust, without the sun there is no photosynthesis, no food chain, no animals, no people, no electrical grid, no internet, no water that is not irradiated or salty, no anything. Essentially what would be left after many, many, slow and painful years would be something that would look like Mars. The planet is technically still in existence, but it has ended. Hindsight is a beautiful thing but is not as beautiful as foresight. We have lacked foresight, and like you say, that is why we are having to change now. But the ears listen and the eyes see, having only heard and viewed, for too long. The proverb that we do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, but instead borrow it from our children, applies to all of those you listed, especially the Israeli right wing. And it is a bittersweet saying at this point. You know what the bittersweet feeling means - regret, remorse, nostalgic realisation that we had opportunities and dreams that did not become reality because we were too caught up in and distracted by other, useless shite.
    Don't ever read "The Road." lol. Why so cynical? I see in your profile you're like 20.

    I hope you're able to compartmentalize your fears. It's all whistling Dixie in the end. We have to create meaning and find happiness for ourselves, with whatever we have in our control.
    Last edited by Mordecai; 07-17-2014 at 02:39 AM.

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    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    ^I love your last sentence, and I also like your defense of ritual.

    Yeah, sure, there's a lot of evil in the world. There's also a lot of decency and beauty. Indulging in the latter while not ignoring the former is a delicate balancing act. But doing that is one of the keys to a happy life, so I give it my best shot.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

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    I would personally interpret Christ sharing his symbolic blood and body around the table, being him speaking in riddles about the fact that he was going to be killed, and that his body and his blood (which he clearly does not define as him SELF) would literally be broken and spilt for everyone. I don't think he meant for the rest of history you have to drink wine and eat unleavened bread in a ritual and say that my spirit is inhabiting it. The very point was that his spirit and indeed everyone's is really not just the body, blood or anything else, but the root of perception - the kingdom of God is within you - whether you call it the mind, the soul, the brain, whatever. To call consciousness a product of the brain like it's the apex of scientific rationality is just to express the idea of YOUR body as being you on a lesser scale.

    When I said I was raised Christian, I specifically meant Catholic, so I'm not a propagandist or anything like that, the fact is simply that yes... the Catholic church has served as a filthy rich den of inequity at the highest levels. I'm extremely sorry but that is a factual statement. My statement about ritual mainly arose out of my previous statements about ritual sacrifice of children in the Catholic church, at the higher levels, and the actual drinking of real blood, which I would bet my life does happen, sadly. And the phrase about the whore and its inequity is from the Bible, I didn't make it up, I'm not that good a writer.

    Machiavellianism is the employment of cunning or duplicity in statecraft or general conduct, so if a family is intentionally being deceptive in an everyday social context in order to save face then that is Machiavellian behaviour. Whether you think they are justified in that behaviour doesn't change the nature of it. Like everything else, Machiavellianism gets more complex and grander the higher up the chain of command you go. Especially in politics and organised religion, both of which revolve around demagoguery.

    As for The Road, I haven't read it but I watched the film and loved it. But the reality of what would happen in the event of nuclear war influences fiction, not the other way round. As I said before, I'm not afraid of death or of the apocalypse so there is nothing to compartmentalise. And if there really was an apocalypse, we would be able to control nothing and I guarantee that nobody would think it was all whistling Dixie then. The same applies to the matter of disembodied perception after death, directed by karma or whatever you want to call it, which would only really terrify those who had done bad, selfish, things for themselves without considering the happiness of the people they fucked over to get their happiness - ie, those who had bad karma.

    And concerning whether or not the Bible is true or its prophecies accurate: what about the point I made that powerful people who steadfastly believe it IS true, would then orchestrate events in a way so as to bring about its apocalyptic parts on Earth, thus fulfilling the prophecies in a crazy inception style mindfuck for the religious and non religious alike? And in the belief of the orchestrator, bring the Messiah to Earth having heroically acted in accordance with the word of God? It actually makes perfect sense that if God is not behind the Bible, then man would be behind it in all directions.
    Last edited by Zippo; 07-17-2014 at 04:39 PM.

  13. #13
    the druthers Mordecai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    I would personally interpret Christ sharing his symbolic blood and body around the table, being him speaking in riddles about the fact that he was going to be killed, and that his body and his blood (which he clearly does not define as him SELF) would literally be broken and spilt for everyone. I don't think he meant for the rest of history you have to drink wine and eat unleavened bread in a ritual and say that my spirit is inhabiting it.
    For me, I think that Christianity was basically a Hellenized Jewish mystery cult. It's all about the individual attaining immortality through the suffering of the God-man, Jesus Christ (who may not have existed in history, btw). You do that, in part, through the mystery (still the world used by Greeks for the Sacraments) of the Eucharist. The idea that Jesus at the last supper was, as you say, a historical character who was simply foreshadowing what was to happen to him the next day might have been just what Christians would tell outsiders to not freak them out or get in trouble with the authorities. Being secretive was how all these cults operated in the Greco-Roman world. Inductees in the cult only would get in on the salvation/eternal life/incense/chalice of blood-wine hocus pocus stuff.

    The very point was that his spirit and indeed everyone's is really not just the body, blood or anything else, but the root of perception - the kingdom of God is within you - whether you call it the mind, the soul, the brain, whatever. To call consciousness a product of the brain like it's the apex of scientific rationality is just to express the idea of YOUR body as being you on a lesser scale.

    When I said I was raised Christian, I specifically meant Catholic, so I'm not a propagandist or anything like that, the fact is simply that yes... the Catholic church has served as a filthy rich den of inequity at the highest levels.
    Iniquity.

    I'm extremely sorry but that is a factual statement. My statement about ritual mainly arose out of my previous statements about ritual sacrifice of children in the Catholic church, at the higher levels, and the actual drinking of real blood, which I would bet my life does happen, sadly. And the phrase about the whore and its inequity is from the Bible, I didn't make it up, I'm not that good a writer.
    You're completely right, of course, that there is a church-wide conspiracy to cover up for rape factories. But to use all that flowery language that basically calls the church the Whore of Babylon is hyperbolic. The church is not an apocalyptically powerful institution like it might have been in the Renaissance or under the Christian Roman/Byzantine emperors.

    Using that language does a real disservice to the discussion. The problem of rape/abuse/cover-up has a relatively straightforward sociological/psychological etiology. It's the same behavior we witness in countless other patriarchal institutions, from Penn State to the BBC to your friendly neighborhood rapey-cover-upy family. No need to invoke the book of Revelation or Machiavelli, for fuck's sake.

    Machiavellianism is the employment of cunning or duplicity in statecraft or general conduct, so if a family is intentionally being deceptive in an everyday social context in order to save face then that is Machiavellian behaviour. Whether you think they are justified in that behaviour doesn't change the nature of it. Like everything else, Machiavellianism gets more complex and grander the higher up the chain of command you go. Especially in politics and organised religion, both of which revolve around demagoguery.

    As for The Road, I haven't read it but I watched the film and loved it. But the reality of what would happen in the event of nuclear war influences fiction, not the other way round. As I said before, I'm not afraid of death or of the apocalypse so there is nothing to compartmentalise. And if there really was an apocalypse, we would be able to control nothing and I guarantee that nobody would think it was all whistling Dixie then. The same applies to the matter of disembodied perception after death, directed by karma or whatever you want to call it, which would only really terrify those who had done bad, selfish, things for themselves without considering the happiness of the people they fucked over to get their happiness - ie, those who had bad karma.
    That's all a bit too Donnie Darko for me, I'm afraid.

    And concerning whether or not the Bible is true or its prophecies accurate: what about the point I made that powerful people who steadfastly believe it IS true, would then orchestrate events in a way so as to bring about its apocalyptic parts on Earth, thus fulfilling the prophecies in a crazy inception style mindfuck for the religious and non religious alike? And in the belief of the orchestrator, bring the Messiah to Earth having heroically acted in accordance with the word of God? It actually makes perfect sense that if God is not behind the Bible, then man would be behind it in all directions.
    I have really different views from you. Most of the evil we see in the world is the result of human greed, vanity and shortsightedness, not Pure Evil™ to manipulate world events with an eye to ending life on earth forever.
    Last edited by Mordecai; 07-17-2014 at 10:54 PM.

  14. #14
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    ^Truth. "Evil" truly is banal. I tend to shy away from calling individual human beings evil; to me, usually, evil is something you do, not something you are. And evil is made. It's not born into us like blue eyes or being queer. And yeah, it usually has its roots in plain old moral laziness, which all of us are given to at times.

    And the source of whatever optimism I have is that you can say pretty much all of that for good.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  15. #15
    she said destroy Lágnætti's Avatar
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    Right, so someone (probably Russia, but really in the current situation with everyone and their dog forming militias over there, god knows) shot down a Malaysian Air passenger jet over eastern Ukraine. 200+ people splattered over the landscape along with what's left of the aircraft.

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