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Thread: Screw it, Taylor Swift gets her own thread!

  1. #331
    Senior Member ontheindianside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    Ed Sheeran and Future are my least favorite things about having ears. Other than that this album is a blast!

    Also I’m not sure why everyone wants Taylor to take the high road and be nice to poor little Kanye when the guy sexually harassed her with with simulated revenge nudes in a big-budget music video in front of everyone. This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things is hilariously petty and it’s not like she’s telling him to go back to the psych ward or anything truly crass.
    Agreed. Like, if someone made a nude wax model of me, put it next to himself in a bed, and broadcast it to the world, I’d definitely spend more than a year getting over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    This absolutely gets at why I've felt so conflicted about her/this album/the media coverage. Disclaimer here, I can't stand Kanye. Those feelings go back to before the VMA incident in 2009. So when it came to Kanye vs Taylor, I've always been team Taylor.

    However, I want to be cautious with my position of privilege as a white man when looking at the other side. From the debates I've heard and read, critics of Taylor are upset she played the victim and knowingly maligned a mentally ill black man. I don't want to speculate on someone's mental instability, but it was clear from Kanye's concert rants that he needed some help. He went to rehab shortly after his Trump supporting rant, during which he also criticized Obama, Hillary, Beyonce, and Jay-Z. This didn't even feel out of character to me. He's always been an attention-seeking narcissist. This conversation produced judgments about Taylor's views on race, her political stance, etc. So much of the conversation feels like regurgitated narratives from critics rather than looking critically at the entire situation. He interrupted her like a "jackass," as Obama noted. Eventually makes a video of a wax figure of her being naked... people seem to gloss over that part, like Perky mentioned.

    Does it bother me she's not more full-throated about social causes and denouncing nazis? Kind of, only because I root for her and want her to be that kind of pop star. I know that's never been her style, but I wish it was. That's my own thing. But to take her silence as being a nazi-sympathizer, retitling her album as 'republican'... it distracts from the actually dangerous nazis and republicans. Some honestly believe she's this conservative Trump supporter and I have to laugh. Evidence aside, would people like Lena Dunham, Lorde, Jack Antonoff, etc support her and work with her if that was the case?

    That's not to say I think Taylor is completely innocent here. I think she fanned the flames and yes, she was caught lying. There's plenty of problematic and petty examples of her relationship with the media and other celebrities. Hopefully she devotes less time to that on subsequent albums, because the songs from this record that shine brightest are divorced of those associations.
    I get what you’re saying, and I also sometimes feel like a bad leftist for loving her so much and honestly being on her side in all this stuff (and I acknowledge my privilege in my ability to basically ignore politics here). Like, I had some long comment on a friend’s FB post that mentioned Taylor’s “white fragility power moves,” and I deleted it before I posted it, but it went something like: I don’t think T Swift has the most nuanced understanding of racial politics, I don’t think she sees her actions existing in an innocent white woman/mean black beast framework (because she doesn’t know that narrative frame or trope exists; she’s not a grad student in cultural studies). I think she sees it as this older man targeting her for no apparent reason, and he still gets more respect as an artist than she does and doesn’t have his ridiculous private life (come on, you’re married to Kim Kardashian, but you’re super subversive and whatever?) scrutinized in the same way. I can see why she feels like the victim even if America will always sympathize with the pretty white girl before the outspoken black man. She’s not thinking about it that way. That’s a good lens through which to interpret it as a narrative but a harder one to apply to an actual person.

    I believe her, actually. I think she was kind of okay with “Famous” in the abstract and trying to be friendly (patriarchal behavioral standards), but it probably does feel different when you hear the whole thing as a fully produced song that actually exists rather than a couple of lines its creator speaks to you on the phone. I believe that it upset her, maybe only later and by surprise (but she has a right to that response), and that the Grammy speech was genuine. Maybe it wasn’t a great idea, but either she is an incredible actress (verifiably false) or she actually did feel hurt by the lyric and its implications.

    And what was she supposed to say, “No, you can’t use that lyric?” Then the headline would have been “Prudish Taylor Swift Can’t Take Joke.” She couldn’t have won unless she’d said nothing about it, and especially after the video, that would have been hard to do. And, as Jake implied, how could most people have known that Kanye was having a mental breakdown? He’s always come off as a narcissist crazy man! None of his pre-rehab rants seemed out of character to me, either. Was Taylor supposed to say, “He’s obviously not doing well emotionally because he’s acting like himself”?

    I get that there are racial politics involved, and to an extent, I agree that it’s important to discuss it through the white-fragility narrative lens. But I also think that lens blurs as you get further from the event as a pop culture narrative and closer to it as something that actually happened between three people. I sometimes wonder if I’m uncritically defending T Swift because I just like her, but I really have thought about it (obviously!), and I think that, while she did kind of lie, her response was still emotionally honest if not objectively so.

    TL; DR: I think T Swift gets unnecessary shit for doing stuff that’s not even as bad as what certain people have done to her.

    ETA: I actually don’t want her to get political. It’s not her thing, and she probably wouldn’t do it well. I suspect it would feel forced, would make no one happy, and might sink her (if anything can). I also dislike that we’re at a point where you are a white supremacist if you don’t denounce some weirdos in their moms basements who think you’re an Aryan goddess. It’s enough for me to have seen an Instagram post where she and some friends are at dinner with a Hillary cake. Her heart, I’m sure, is in the fight place, but political songs are not what she does. She writes about herself, and (especially as an essayist who rarely gets political in her work—it feels awkward to me—and writes about herself), that’s largely what I like about her.

    But, um, anyway...yeaoh, I really love the album. It’s so big and fun and campy (I totally disagree with wout’s contention that it’s gloomy) but still heartfelt. I’ve been listening to it for two days straight.

    I'd love to see Taylor focus on what she does best: ridiculously perfect pop songwriting and melodic construction. Someone suggested her next album could be a lo-fi, Exile in Guyville-type affair... and honestly, with the right producers (ABANDON MAX MARTIN), it would work!
    Oh, man, totally. I’d love to hear an entire album like that “Wildest Dreams” GRAMMY Museum performance but maybe grittier. Electric guitars, some drums, voice. And she looks so hot in that black sweatshirt. Like, I want an album that sounds like that big black sweatshirt but with combat boots and bleached hair. Maybe some flannel.
    Last edited by ontheindianside; 11-14-2017 at 02:37 AM. Reason: I apparently care way too much about this but not enough to fix all my typos!

  2. #332
    entertaining in its outrage Volta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ontheindianside View Post
    Agreed. Like, if someone made a nude wax model of me, put it next to himself in a bed, and broadcast it to the world, I’d definitely spend more than a year getting over it.



    I get what you’re saying, and I also sometimes feel like a bad leftist for loving her so much and honestly being on her side in all this stuff (and I acknowledge my privilege in my ability to basically ignore politics here). Like, I had some long comment on a friend’s FB post that mentioned Taylor’s “white fragility power moves,” and I deleted it before I posted it, but it went something like: I don’t think T Swift has the most nuanced understanding of racial politics, I don’t think she sees her actions existing in an innocent white woman/mean black beast framework (because she doesn’t know that narrative frame or trope exists; she’s not a grad student in cultural studies). I think she sees it as this older man targeting her for no apparent reason, and he still gets more respect as an artist than she does and doesn’t have his ridiculous private life (come on, you’re married to Kim Kardashian, but you’re super subversive and whatever?) scrutinized in the same way. I can see why she feels like the victim even if America will always sympathize with the pretty white girl before the outspoken black man. She’s not thinking about it that way. That’s a good lens through which to interpret it as a narrative but a harder one to apply to an actual person.

    I believe her, actually. I think she was kind of okay with “Famous” in the abstract and trying to be friendly (patriarchal behavioral standards), but it probably does feel different when you hear the whole thing as a fully produced song that actually exists rather than a couple of lines its creator speaks to you on the phone. I believe that it upset her, maybe only later and by surprise (but she has a right to that response), and that the Grammy speech was genuine. Maybe it wasn’t a great idea, but either she is an incredible actress (verifiably false) or she actually did feel hurt by the lyric and its implications.

    And what was she supposed to say, “No, you can’t use that lyric?” Then the headline would have been “Prudish Taylor Swift Can’t Take Joke.” She couldn’t have won unless she’d said nothing about it, and especially after the video, that would have been hard to do. And, as Jake implied, how could most people have known that Kanye was having a mental breakdown? He’s always come off as a narcissist crazy man! None of his pre-rehab rants seemed out of character to me, either. Was Taylor supposed to say, “He’s obviously not doing well emotionally because he’s acting like himself”?

    I get that there are racial politics involved, and to an extent, I agree that it’s important to discuss it through the white-fragility narrative lens. But I also think that lens blurs as you get further from the event as a pop culture narrative and closer to it as something that actually happened between three people. I sometimes wonder if I’m uncritically defending T Swift because I just like her, but I really have thought about it (obviously!), and I think that, while she did kind of lie, her response was still emotionally honest if not objectively so.

    TL; DR: I think T Swift gets unnecessary shit for doing stuff that’s not even as bad as what certain people have done to her.

    ETA: I actually don’t want her to get political. It’s not her thing, and she probably wouldn’t do it well. I suspect it would feel forced, would make no one happy, and might sink her (if anything can). I also dislike that we’re at a point where you are a white supremacist if you don’t denounce some weirdos in their moms basements who think you’re an Aryan goddess. It’s enough for me to have seen an Instagram post where she and some friends are at dinner with a Hillary cake. Her heart, I’m sure, is in the fight place, but political songs are not what she does. She writes about herself, and (especially as an essayist who rarely gets political in her work—it feels awkward to me—and writes about herself), that’s largely what I like about her.

    But, um, anyway...yeaoh, I really love the album. It’s so big and fun and campy (I totally disagree with wout’s contention that it’s gloomy) but still heartfelt. I’ve been listening to it for two days straight.



    Oh, man, totally. I’d love to hear an entire album like that “Wildest Dreams” GRAMMY Museum performance but maybe grittier. Electric guitars, some drums, voice. And she looks so hot in that black sweatshirt. Like, I want an album that sounds like that big black sweatshirt but with combat boots and bleached hair. Maybe some flannel.
    Absolutely. And she's really evolved from when she was singing about Tim Mcgraw and Princess Parties. And really, no one is going in like they should except for Kathy Griffin. And she can't even gig in the US anymore. You get on the INTERPOL lists, and no fly lists, and secret service are monitoring you... and Trump Jr. saying he's going to make sure you're decimated.

    Right now is not the time for Taylor. It would be wonderful and it would matter but her sales don't come from people who frequent this board, they come from people who frequent Walmart. Go into any Walmart and not only is her album out but everything else: booklets, t-shirts, name it. When other businesses... I imagine a lot of factories and text-tile companies are making their money off of her making her money.... She is responsible for a lot.

    Trump isn't hated enough by the Walmart crowd yet. Taylor'd be shooting herself in the foot. She's not ready to be Sinead and ahead of her target audience's time.

    I don't see her staying so popular, tho. In 2 years when you'd expect her next album.. I just don't know if she'll be as marketable.
    But she can always go back to the country platflorm, in that market she's still an infant. Can't piss them off. No way.

    Faith Hill, Shania Twain crossed over into pop.. and then they crossed right back over to Nashville.. eventually.
    Last edited by Volta; 11-14-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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  3. #333
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty safe to assume that Swift privately supported Hillary, but kept her mouth shut because of the Dixie Chicks precedent. At the time of the 2016 election, she was a primarily country artist with one crossover pop album. Her primary fan base is not the same as, say, Gaga's.

  4. #334
    Senior Member ontheindianside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volta View Post
    Absolutely. And she's really evolved from when she was singing about Tim Mcgraw and Princess Parties. And really, no one is going in like they should except for Kathy Griffin. And she can't even gig in the US anymore. You get on the INTERPOL lists, and no fly lists, and secret service are monitoring you... and Trump Jr. saying he's going to make sure you're decimated.

    Right now is not the time for Taylor. It would be wonderful and it would matter but her sales don't come from people who frequent this board, they come from people who frequent Walmart. Go into any Walmart and not only is her album out but everything else: booklets, t-shirts, name it. When other businesses... I imagine a lot of factories and text-tile companies are making their money off of her making her money.... She is responsible for a lot.

    Trump isn't hated enough by the Walmart crowd yet. Taylor'd be shooting herself in the foot. She's not ready to be Sinead and ahead of her target audience's time.
    Thank you for the “Absolutely.” I’ll trade you one for another. Absolutely. It’s kind of scary to consider how many jobs depend on Taylor Swift!

    QUOTE=Dan;539555]I think it's pretty safe to assume that Swift privately supported Hillary, but kept her mouth shut because of the Dixie Chicks precedent. At the time of the 2016 election, she was a primarily country artist with one crossover pop album. Her primary fan base is not the same as, say, Gaga's.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. She’s a shrewd businesswoman, and she knows her fans; she doesn’t want to alienate half her audience. (I think she’s said as much.) But I also think she’s just not interested in being that kind of pop star, and that’s fine with me. She’s not obligated to talk about politics. I would also rather people listened to someone who’s a closet liberal than, say, Kid Rock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volta View Post
    I don't see her staying so popular, tho. In 2 years when you'd expect her next album.. I just don't know if she'll be as marketable.
    But she can always go back to the country platflorm, in that market she's still an infant. Can't piss them off. No way.

    Faith Hill, Shania Twain crossed over into pop.. and then they crossed right back over to Nashville.. eventually.
    Interesting take. I feel like she’s unbreakable, but, yeah, she’ll be approaching 30 in 2019-2020. Her choices will be limited, and her only choices may be to cross back to country (or, really, a more singer-songwriter thing) or possibly sort of alternative-ish songwriter-centered pop rock. She’ll always have that core fan base of at least half a million people. She could always be, you know, a Tori Amos-type figure. Also, this may be the last cycle during which people will accept her being “sexy,” so I’m glad she’s embracing it. Not that 30 is actually old, but in the pop world...

  5. #335
    Senior Member take_offs's Avatar
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    I've come around to some of this, mostly the Antonoff collabs on the second half. It's just a shame that she is more interested in posturing over pop music styles that don't suit her at best and sound ridiculous at worst, over like, writing good songs.

    "My reputation's never been worse so you must like me for me" is a line that has some promise. Most of what we get is this convoluted victim narrative that isn't compelling at all. I'm just so confused by her. She has the ability to write great music. I hope with the next record she matures into the a songwriter who respects the music more than selling the most units.

  6. #336
    it's not meant to be a strife MikeEP's Avatar
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    This performance on Jimmy Fallon was great:


  7. #337
    burning up the bible BettahDevil's Avatar
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    I really love Delicate and New Year's Day. Getaway Car is totally the new Out of the Woods.

  8. #338
    Senior Member Jake's Avatar
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    This thread is a must-read for some context behind the Jimmy Kimmel performance.

    https://twitter.com/mikedicenzo/stat...95840564043776

  9. #339
    it's not meant to be a strife MikeEP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    This thread is a must-read for some context behind the Jimmy Kimmel performance.

    https://twitter.com/mikedicenzo/stat...95840564043776
    I love you @Jake ..I came in here to post that background info about the performance and thought to myself "I bet Jake has already posted this."

    Quote Originally Posted by BettahDevil View Post
    I really love Delicate and New Year's Day. Getaway Car is totally the new Out of the Woods.
    those are my 3 favorites so far...though nothing will ever top Out of the Woods for me. that song is perfection.

    i really hope she doesn't go with End Game as a single...all of the "darker", vengeful stuff feels so forced, the same way the album cover tries so hard to look edgy. i just don't buy it from her.

  10. #340
    Senior Member Jake's Avatar
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    I gotchu, @MikeEP! But yeah, it's important context especially when you see Jimmy's reaction at the end.

  11. #341
    Senior Member ontheindianside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    I gotchu, @MikeEP! But yeah, it's important context especially when you see Jimmy's reaction at the end.
    I can’t watch the video right now (my mom and I are traveling to NOLA for Tori, and we JUST listened to Reputation, so she’d think I was crazy!), but I love that three-time hand squeeze coincidence (was it one, or did she know the story?)!

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  13. #343
    entertaining in its outrage Volta's Avatar
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    WOW
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  14. #344
    entertaining in its outrage Volta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ontheindianside View Post
    Thank you for the “Absolutely.” I’ll trade you one for another. Absolutely. It’s kind of scary to consider how many jobs depend on Taylor Swift!
    Interesting take. I feel like she’s unbreakable, but, yeah, she’ll be approaching 30 in 2019-2020. Her choices will be limited, and her only choices may be to cross back to country (or, really, a more singer-songwriter thing) or possibly sort of alternative-ish songwriter-centered pop rock. She’ll always have that core fan base of at least half a million people. She could always be, you know, a Tori Amos-type figure. Also, this may be the last cycle during which people will accept her being “sexy,” so I’m glad she’s embracing it. Not that 30 is actually old, but in the pop world...
    I see her doing a live album or an entirely acoustic album maybe 10-15 years from now. LOL She'll definitely try to keep mixing things up and when you go platinum in just 4 days.. wow. Just wow.
    "Washing Machiiiiiine" - Kate Bush

  15. #345
    I love the album...delicate and end game are on constant repeat, I can’t live without them. It doesn’t have the highs of 1989 but also doesn’t have the lows. I don’t dislike any of the songs.

    People throw around “narcissist” so casually...look it up. Taylor is not. They’re burning all the witches even if you aren’t one.

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