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Thread: "Native Invader" | Release: 8 September 2017 [August 10 Update]

  1. #31
    Robbing the muse... Beelust's Avatar
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    There is so much speculation in this post. We really know very little of Mark. His presence on albums could just be the two of them realizing it is cheaper if he plays guitar than hiring someone from the outside - but they don't realize that it impacts the output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    I get what you say, but I think we shouldn't be so harsh. A family's balance is something quite fragile, and I suspect Tori had to face difficult choices. I don't know if she really likes Mark's musical contribuition, but I have a feeling that he has gone through some severe depression (mixed with alcoholism) and, well... if you love someone you'll do anything to make them feel worthy, to make them part of your world. I don't know if my assumption is realistic, but I happened to think that he suffered because of his wife's professional success - I mean, she's Tori Amos the singer/pianist and he's basically her employee. Maybe he felt/feels outshadowed by her stature (we all know that Tori Amos can be quite a cumbersome presence to live with) and he threatened to leave, or something like that. So Tori had to choose between upgrading him to a peer (they're essentially a duo, now) and continuing following her muse, but alone. And she chose the latter. I understand it, but it would have been so much better if only he didn't suck as a musician.

    Apart from that, I must say that I think Tori always had a bad taste, aestethically. Maybe because she's a Leo, and I've never met a Leo who didn't have a bit of a tacky taste, but she just has no sense of limit. She always overdoes: too many colours on her dresses, too many songs in her records, too many instruments in her songs, too many high notes where they don't need to be. She's the opposite of PJ Harvey, who has less melodic talent, but rarely shoots blank because she knows where her limit is and knows how to edit.
    Last edited by Beelust; 10-11-2016 at 08:09 AM.
    Robbing the muse...

  2. #32
    Senior Member datura1452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RG View Post
    This is all so outlandish it hurts. Wat. Not sure if the corporate coffee comment is a dig but I don't get it. Otherwise, I mean dude, Mark does not do anything that Tori Amos does not give him permission or tell him to do. I know that the easy narrative is that Mark Hawley is this scourge in her work that has a mind of its own in shitty playing and creative choices but those are all her shots to call.

    Mark's guitar playing is technically fine. I think it's cheesy, uninspired and beneath her work, but if she didn't like it, it wouldn't be there. By contrast, I didn't enjoy Dan Phelps' live work at all, though I think it was objectively better; I bring it up because I reckon we'd see a lot more of the same if it were his work versus Mark's.

    So sure, call Tori Amos mediocre for her choices. And if you feel that way, you should, because that's on her. But nothing goes on her records without her say.

    & why would her knowing making any difference? If my supporters or clients or fans or whoever all hated my spouse, you can bet I wouldn't need or want to know it and knowing wouldn't compel me to do anything differently.
    I have nothing against Tori´s husband as a person, by no means. I don´t hate HIM, I hate his poor contributions to Tori´s music. That´s why I said as a musician. And Ok, Tori lets him be there and that means she likes her. But considering the top quality of Tori´s music in the past, I think her husband does not make her music any favour and it´s sad she doesn´t notice it. Considering it´s something that´s going to last for ages and it´s her legacy.
    Last edited by datura1452; 10-11-2016 at 09:02 AM.

  3. #33
    and it sounds like all our lives Kari's Avatar
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    The thing is: Mark was involved with Choirgirl and Pele and Venus too. And Scarlet. So....what happened along the way? Listen, I am no Mark Hawley fan, and I think he's been a negative. But RG and others are right: Tori is the one calling the shots. Her crappier output is on HER. I think it's very difficult to maintain the sort of output she was doing in the 90s, and she's stumbled a bit. But 2011-now has been mostly decent, with moments of brilliance. For an artist in her 50s, we can't really expect more than that. Anyone who thinks she's suddenly going to reinvent the wheel is kidding themselves. I hope for an album that has songs that move me the way a few on UG did. The rest is gravy. I don't know why her aesthetic changed and obviously wish it hadn't, but from Scarlet on there was a shift for her in the sort of music she was interested in making.

    At least she's not acting the way she did in 2009 - that bothered me almost more than the music, and it was a time I couldn't bear to even go to a concert. Sad days.

    I think I said this somewhere else - I've started to think of Tori like I think of Bruce Springsteen - brilliant brilliant early career, mid-career the work got a little dodgy, and the later work is hit or miss but still an untouchable live show. I think its actually a more apt comparison than PJ or Bjork or Kate Bush, who do, and have always done, very different work than Tori has done.

  4. #34
    mat-a-tat-tat bratboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    I think I said this somewhere else - I've started to think of Tori like I think of Bruce Springsteen - brilliant brilliant early career, mid-career the work got a little dodgy, and the later work is hit or miss but still an untouchable live show. I think its actually a more apt comparison than PJ or Bjork or Kate Bush, who do, and have always done, very different work than Tori has done.
    And there are so many artists like this, whose output declined or at least mellowed later in their career. But most would kill to have even four highly regarded albums!

  5. #35
    Senior Member neptunerune's Avatar
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    I'm guessing a piano-only release will forever be unlikely. I'll still be keeping my hopes up knowing she still has it in her.
    Past a shooting star

  6. #36
    Cosmic Flavor Yo Jupiter's Avatar
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    I don't mind Mark's acoustic guitar. At all. I actually think it adds a certain warmth to the music. I just hate hate hate when they go "experimental". 16 Shades of Blue, Rose Dover, first part of Unrepentant Geraldines... all sound like a child was learning how to produce and add effects.

    Piano and strings are all I need. Some acoustic guitar is nice too. That's it.
    Не може со обични зборови да ја домами необичноста, зашто и необичните си имаат секој свој пат и тешко се среќаваат.

  7. #37
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    ^I actually quite like Mark's acoustic guitar too. Love the guitar in Ruby.
    Though strangely his best work is the electric guitar in ICSNY imo.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Carey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yo Jupiter View Post
    I don't mind Mark's acoustic guitar. At all. I actually think it adds a certain warmth to the music. I just hate hate hate when they go "experimental". 16 Shades of Blue, Rose Dover, first part of Unrepentant Geraldines... all sound like a child was learning how to produce and add effects.

    Piano and strings are all I need. Some acoustic guitar is nice too. That's it.
    Yes, I like his acoustic work too. It's not exceptional, but it doesn't need to be. Ruby is a treat. I don't mind his guitars on scarlet's walk, I really love it in Icsny, but it's where it started to get ugly. On wednesday and taxi ride, for example, it kinda sucks. It also ruins Virginia to me, for the way it's played (btw i never got if mcaladdin and mc intosh are the same person).

    On a side note, if find 16 shades of blue quite good, even the production. Not experimental at all, but successful.
    Last edited by Carey; 10-12-2016 at 09:26 AM.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell. I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days."

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    On a side note, if find 16 shades of blue quite good, even the production. Not experimental at all, but successful.
    I completely agree with this! I think this is the closest to Choirgirl/Venus production/sounds we have gotten since that era. This was such a treat and something I would love to hear more of on the next album.

  10. #40
    I honestly don't see her ever leaving the Amos family band. Her husband means too much to her, and she would never do anything to remotely hurt his feelings.

    I mean, if your husband was a dentist, and you told him you wanted to try going to someone else to fill a cavity, it would undoubtedly hurt a little, especially after you've been getting cavity after cavity filled by him. Sure, she can be as diplomatic as possible, but at the very least it might create an awkward atmosphere at home.

    It's also probably a big bonding experience for them, and reaffirms their shared emotional connection. She's just gonna suddenly tell him to stay home while she's in the studio? I can't ever see that happening. Ever.
    Living in my own personal Cornwall bubble

  11. #41
    DEEKWARE INDYPENDANTS!!! halo eighteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    (btw i never got if mcaladdin and mc intosh are the same person).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_McIntosh

    No, Robbie McIntosh is a very real person with very real credentials.

  12. #42
    Threat level: Bitch in a wheelchair andy's Avatar
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    I have this feeling there's gonna be a song called 'Locker Room Talk' on this album.

  13. #43
    Princess Sparklefists Sansa Spark's Avatar
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    I expect to see a sea of these at whatever show I go to next tour.

  14. #44
    entertaining in its outrage Volta's Avatar
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    I do think we got a break from Mark with the classical stuff and the musical.
    I'm going to support Tori, regardless. But it would be nice to have a studio album where maybe even she isn't in control of the production. I think that is why I tend to like pop artists and a whole heck of a lot of rnb singers that may have every track produced by someone new. But even then I don't always think those songs are well written lyrically. But it doesn't take a great rhyme or play on words to sing a beautiful note.
    Gone. When hope is almost gone, you know that's the time we must stand strong --
    Every girl in every band- Every cosmic cowboy in the land -to the Earth will you show mercy?

  15. #45
    Get Out The Dark Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    The thing is: Mark was involved with Choirgirl and Pele and Venus too. And Scarlet. So....what happened along the way? Listen, I am no Mark Hawley fan, and I think he's been a negative. But RG and others are right: Tori is the one calling the shots. Her crappier output is on HER. I think it's very difficult to maintain the sort of output she was doing in the 90s, and she's stumbled a bit. But 2011-now has been mostly decent, with moments of brilliance. For an artist in her 50s, we can't really expect more than that. Anyone who thinks she's suddenly going to reinvent the wheel is kidding themselves. I hope for an album that has songs that move me the way a few on UG did. The rest is gravy. I don't know why her aesthetic changed and obviously wish it hadn't, but from Scarlet on there was a shift for her in the sort of music she was interested in making.

    At least she's not acting the way she did in 2009 - that bothered me almost more than the music, and it was a time I couldn't bear to even go to a concert. Sad days.

    I think I said this somewhere else - I've started to think of Tori like I think of Bruce Springsteen - brilliant brilliant early career, mid-career the work got a little dodgy, and the later work is hit or miss but still an untouchable live show. I think its actually a more apt comparison than PJ or Bjork or Kate Bush, who do, and have always done, very different work than Tori has done.
    I agree with everything except the "for someone in their 50's, what can we expect" bit. I hope that I'm not creatively neutered in 14 years. David Bowie put out two EXCELLENT albums in his 60's. I don't think that age has to have anything to do with it ( the quality of your work) if you don't let it. I understand that it's been said many times that we responded to emotions that "young Tori" brought to her work that a mellowed out, happily married mom in her 50's just can't tap into. But the themes she worked with ( all except break-ups) are not just reserved for the young. The fiercest moment on UG for me is in the title track and "I'm gonna free myself". It works because I BELIEVE that's something she still deals with. The emotional resonance is there just as much as it's ever been....it's just that the vehicle for it isn't. Strip away that production, give it some "OOMPH" and I wouldn't have known, as an outsider, that it wasn't from her earlier albums.
    The Landslide Never Brought, Brought Me Down

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