Native Invader | Now Released

[Peeping Tommi]

Oh PT, I'm sorry, I never intended to claim that you did something; my question was actually more general, not only about that particular event. I was wondering about it because I think that reviews would actually be better publicity for the album (if the album is good); like the reviews before TBK was released, when somebody made some kind of relation between Precious Things and Hoochie Woman. How couldn't we be more excited about that!? And, well, then we listened to TBK.
So, my apologies, it wasn't my intention to blame you or anything like that.

Oh, I know waitressboy! I never read your post as you blaming me or anything, so no worries. I just wanted to clarify the situation because the last couple of years, I've been one of the lucky people (thanks to dollsbitches) who was able to listen to Tori's albums in advance.

[ontheindianside]

This has been true for me as well, for quite a while now actually. Tori and PJ are my two favorite artists. My iTunes play counts of their songs far eclipses the play counts of any other artists. I compare them as follows:

They both have written and performed many dozens of songs that I can listen to endlessly and dearly love. They both have multiple whole albums that I worship from start to finish. PJ has the edge on cool, and I appreciate her propensity for restraint and focus on editing. If I could only take one of their discographies with me to the proverbial desert island though, I would choose Tori's without question. Her music is more personally meaningful to me. I guess that's the main reason.

But for me, PJ's latter day albums are amazing***. Uh Huh Her, White Chalk, and Let England Shake as a three album sequence is PJ's LE-UTP-BFP for my taste. I love every one of them front to back. They're brilliant. It's hard to believe that anyone could pull off such an amazing artistic achievement as those three albums in a row, whereas Tori's latter day albums have been hit and miss and generally splotchy... and as a result I've generally lowered my expectations about what she will do going forward. Not so for PJ. I don't necessarily believe her best work is behind her. It wouldn't surprise me if she put out something totally amazing in the future; it would sh-sh-shock me sane if Tori did.

While I can't really disagree with your opinions, I actually sort of think Tori gets a lot more shit for some of the same things (musically, not visually!) that PJ Harvey gets away with. Admittedly, I'm not a giant PJ fan. I haven't listened closely to an album since When Under Ether (I tried to get into LES, but I just couldn't, though I recognize that there are good songs on it--and I was also listening on free Spotify, which I never use and didn't realize would just shuffle all PJ Harvey songs, and I think some Hope Six Demolition got in there). I saw her last month, and I just felt like there was a palpable difference between the earlier stuff and the new stuff: mostly more direct lyrics that don't have the same evocative power and simpler, or at least less dynamic, instrumentation. PJ was amazing. It was one of the best sounding shows I've ever seen. But it left me a little dull, where a Tori show--even those we now deem "bad" (like 2009)--always leaves me feeling like I just had a spiritual experience. I feel like, because PJ Harvey was always "cool" and Tori kind of wasn't, she gets a pass when she writes lyrics that are kind of cringeworthy, and her intention overshadows her execution when the music doesn't quite hold up.

I'm not trying to start a Tori v. PJ fight, either. I think this happens to a lot of artists (I call it "Third Album Syndrome" because that's often, especially in more recent times, when artists start overproducing and their lyrics get too on the nose or whatever, but obviously, like, for Tori it's technically Seventh or Eighth Album Syndrome, and when you've made that many great albums in a row, you kind of get a pass in my book). I guess my point is basically that it may seem more pronounced with Tori (which is especially obvious on the visual side of things), but I don't think it's unusual, and I think some artists get "cool points" where others might not, and those cool points hang over them and their work densely enough that people don't notice the quality decline. I'm sure I could think of other examples, but I just woke up, so apologies if this is incoherent.

[whenthepawn]

Let's not even get started on the website - there was a 5 page discussion around the font, and the website design is honestly equally as amateur and generally shitty, so I shall digress here.

- Well, I'm glad I missed that discussion, but compared to a few of her last website relaunches for new material, this one is the WORST. Who knows, maybe something better is around the corner. That table of tour dates screams 1997 to me, though.

It's hard to believe that anyone could pull off such an amazing artistic achievement as those three albums in a row, whereas Tori's latter day albums have been hit and miss and generally splotchy... and as a result I've generally lowered my expectations about what she will do going forward. Not so for PJ. I don't necessarily believe her best work is behind her. It wouldn't surprise me if she put out something totally amazing in the future; it would sh-sh-shock me sane if Tori did.

I think she (Tori) could do it. To me, her biggest problem is filler. If she could just leave the better songs intact and get rid of all of the nonsense in between, her albums would be more solid.

To this day, the only songs I can listen to on UG are: America, Trouble's Lament, Wild Way, and Oysters. I just do not care for anything else on it.

[Aster]

While I can't really disagree with your opinions, I actually sort of think Tori gets a lot more shit for some of the same things (musically, not visually!) that PJ Harvey gets away with. Admittedly, I'm not a giant PJ fan. I haven't listened closely to an album since When Under Ether (I tried to get into LES, but I just couldn't, though I recognize that there are good songs on it--and I was also listening on free Spotify, which I never use and didn't realize would just shuffle all PJ Harvey songs, and I think some Hope Six Demolition got in there). I saw her last month, and I just felt like there was a palpable difference between the earlier stuff and the new stuff: mostly more direct lyrics that don't have the same evocative power and simpler, or at least less dynamic, instrumentation. PJ was amazing. It was one of the best sounding shows I've ever seen. But it left me a little dull, where a Tori show--even those we now deem "bad" (like 2009)--always leaves me feeling like I just had a spiritual experience. I feel like, because PJ Harvey was always "cool" and Tori kind of wasn't, she gets a pass when she writes lyrics that are kind of cringeworthy, and her intention overshadows her execution when the music doesn't quite hold up.

I'm not trying to start a Tori v. PJ fight, either. I think this happens to a lot of artists (I call it "Third Album Syndrome" because that's often, especially in more recent times, when artists start overproducing and their lyrics get too on the nose or whatever, but obviously, like, for Tori it's technically Seventh or Eighth Album Syndrome, and when you've made that many great albums in a row, you kind of get a pass in my book). I guess my point is basically that it may seem more pronounced with Tori (which is especially obvious on the visual side of things), but I don't think it's unusual, and I think some artists get "cool points" where others might not, and those cool points hang over them and their work densely enough that people don't notice the quality decline. I'm sure I could think of other examples, but I just woke up, so apologies if this is incoherent.

I know what you mean. Tori is earnest and so even when she's trying to be campy (vagina dress) it doesn't come off right. Not good for the cool factor but it certainly gets her devoted fans.

Not that PJ isn't earnest in her own way. But you feel there's a veil she's standing behind or something. Which of course is all right. Different artists have different styles.

[Spikey]

While I can't really disagree with your opinions.

I think you just did anyway. You really think that PJ Harvey won a second Mercury award because they "gave her a pass"? How would that work> "oh let us just ignore the other nominated songwriters Adele and Katy B, because Polls gets a pass". Okay.

[waitressboy]

I do feel that it's "cool" to listen to PJ but listening to Tori is "uncool".
And it make sense, after TBK Tori is not cool. She'd had her moments, but her Fori era wasn't cool. And, tbh, who would nominate her for an award with albums that have stuff like Hoochie Woman, or Fat Slut & Pose bonus, or the whole AATS, or Giants Rolling Pin? I may like the stuff PJ released on the last 15 years (actually, I don't), but truth is that if you compare anything PJ released after UHH with anything Tori release from TBK on, PJ sounds alive, cool, it's music that you don't feel embarrassed to listen in public. (Btw, that's an appropriate definition of what I meant with "cool": something that doesn't make you feel embarrassed).

[Octopussy]

I think PJ keeps it simple - 12-track albums, loose themes over heavy-handed concepts, no alter-egos or song cycles. And with some rare exceptions, she avoids bringing her personal life into her music. Tori can't help talk about herself, and even when she doesn't, interviewers and fans will ask her about her life anyway. She can't avoid it now. In a way, I think it's easier for people to pick up a PJ Harvey album like White Chalk or Hope Six, and enjoy it without too much context. With Tori it's like you have to explain how great she was in 1996 to get anyone to appreciate AATS or Gold Dust.

[waitressboy]

^ Yes, and also remember that in the 90s, if you were a girl, you "had to" be a confessional songwriter. PJ was more the storyteller songwriter, but in the 90s everybody wanted to know about you, so people were asking PJ if she had killed a child because of "Down by the water".

[ontheindianside]

I think you just did anyway. You really think that PJ Harvey won a second Mercury award because they "gave her a pass"? How would that work> "oh let us just ignore the other nominated songwriters Adele and Katy B, because Polls gets a pass". Okay.

No, obviously she'd made the superior album among the nominees for the Mercury Prize (not that I'm the arbiter of taste). I'm saying that I don't think her albums are as good as they used to be, for some of the same reasons that Tori's albums aren't as good (less interesting arrangements and lyrics), but people don't really acknowledge it because PJ Harvey is "cool." And I agree: PJ Harvey makes more cohesive, technically better records than Tori does these days, which is what I meant when I said I couldn't argue with that opinion. It's not wrong. But I don't think she's immune to some of the same issues that we see in Tori's output (I mean, yes, Tori also has some different issues, PJ is a better editor, etc; I just think there are some parallels that don't get acknowledged). I'm not condemning PJ Harvey. I'm just saying that I think she has a "cool factor" that Tori doesn't have, so it's easier to ignore the aforementioned weaker spots. That's all. I know it seems like I went on a rant. I'm just wordy.

[grapefruit_is_winning]

I think you're onto something there indianside, certainly with respect to PJ's lyrics on Hope Six. But I would take her latter day output (excluding Hope Six) over Dry, Rid of Me, or Stories. (I do know people are going to hang me for that!)

In response to whenthepawn's initial point that kicked this discussion off, I will say this: I may be more excited about the prospect of a new PJ record, but I will always be excited for new Tori records as well. I don't think that will ever change for me at this point.

And now I shall stop talking about PJ Harvey in Tori's thread.

[Adam]

OnTheIndianSide, what you had to say about the "third album syndrome" really struck me because I've been going through that myself. I think it's VERY hard to keep yourself honest and free once you realize that OMG PEOPLE ARE LISTENING. It doesn't even take a third album to do it, either. I am the furthest thing from being well-known, but two summer's ago, two really great things happened that really messed me up. One, I got limited play on the radio across the country which was so exciting and two, had a meeting with Universal. I felt like I was just on the edge of "making it" and subconsciously, started chasing "it" like a rabid dog. With that came this desire to make sure nothing got in my way. It's embarrassing for me to admit it, but I started overworking the hell out of my lyrics, trying to make sure that nothing could be critiqued. Imagine trying to control that. How on earth do you do it? How futile. I didn't want people to think my lyrics were too obtuse, too earnest, too direct, not direct enough and on and on and on until it drove me nuts and I couldn't write a song to save my life. I basically wanted to present myself in some fool-proof way and then it struck me that I was being the total opposite of a creative being. I had trapped myself and had gotten SO lost in my navel that I killed any creativity. How can you be creative when you're trying to control the outcome even to the point of how it's received? It doesn't work.

I don't claim to speak for Tori or anyone else, but after going through that as an indie artist that no one even knows , I KNOW that it must be so hard as an artist that's well-known. Maybe some artists never go through that, but it did open my eyes to just how easy it is to fall into. And honestly, when I hear some Fori albums, I feel like she was in that space. She was thinking WAY too much to the point that she was sabotaging herself. And maybe that's not what she was going through at all, but I do think it happens and I DO think it's for the reasons I mentioned.

[Yessica]

I think pj Harvey is the most overrated artist from the 90s. She has some great songs, but she never really seems to come to any point. I also find her persona tiring. No idea why people worship her. She also cant play piano, she shouldnt try.

[hey j.]

She also cant play piano, she shouldnt try.

Huh?

[Yessica]

On white chalk, she sounds so stupid trying to play piano

[soignee]

ooh girl I'm getting there. Couple more call outs and I may have a shot at full house!!!