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Thread: "Native Invader" | Release: 8 September 2017 [August 10 Update]

  1. #16
    and it sounds like all our lives Kari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RG View Post
    Worst song ever? The production is crap and the lyrics aren't strong but the overall composition is pretty standard fair, if not solid. I don't really like the song but you think it's really that awful?
    I am not hearing what everyone else is this time. I think it's FINE.

  2. #17
    Senior Member ordbok's Avatar
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    But see, I think she made some of her best music being self-centred, but one would hope with that amount of hubris, she'd surround herself with the best of the best. It would make more sense.

    I can forgive her for some of the vapid comments she's made about taxes, or mr Snowden and Russia. She's not a economist nor is she a politician.

    But she does call herself a producer. I see no proof of her showing any interest in researching for her "craft". One need only to look to her various playlists that gets published.
    Just because you say it - doesn't make it so Mrs Hawley

  3. #18
    Senior Member Venus_Envy's Avatar
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    Like others, I am not eagerly anticipating the return of the Amos family band. I really hope Matt and John are at least back (as much as I would love her to work with other people, M&J are at least real musicians with real instruments!).

    I always got the impression that the nature of the production/instrumentation of UG was purely due to the nature in whcih the songs were written and recorded...ie between TLP and in little mini-sessions, the whole secret sonic selfies thing. And it would be hard to get the band together to work on songs in that kind of environment given when she's based. Like a day here, a few days there, a weekend there. Logistical nightmare.

    So with that in mind, I am really hoping and praying for some real musicians this time around.
    ~just an underwater thing~

  4. #19
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    I always got the impression that the nature of the production/instrumentation of UG was purely due to the nature in which the songs were written and recorded...ie between TLP and in little mini-sessions, the whole secret sonic selfies thing. And it would be hard to get the band together to work on songs in that kind of environment given when she's based. Like a day here, a few days there, a weekend there. Logistical nightmare.
    I think this is probably true, and I can forgive UG sounding basically pretty amateurish for this reason. What I find more problematic is that even the recent solo piano and vocal recordings don't sound that good to me - they sound too shiny and the piano sounds less soulful compared to piano/vocal recordings like Horses, or Black Swan or Sister Janet. I'm not referring to the fact that her voice is different, I mean more from a technical recording perspective, it's like they've even forgotten how to record a piano/vocal song with any flair or personality..it's all so polished.

  5. #20
    Crimson Liberator Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by datura1452 View Post
    Tori´s husband should go and work in a Starbucks or something. Or being practicing 10 years the guitar and come back later if he has something to contribute. It must be hard being a top musician as Tori and having a mediocre husband that wants to work with you. I´d say Tori is being also mediocre if she lets him to put those horrible guitar chords in her songs.

    I wonder if Tori knows what negative opinion most of us have of her husband as a musician.
    This is all so outlandish it hurts. Wat. Not sure if the corporate coffee comment is a dig but I don't get it. Otherwise, I mean dude, Mark does not do anything that Tori Amos does not give him permission or tell him to do. I know that the easy narrative is that Mark Hawley is this scourge in her work that has a mind of its own in shitty playing and creative choices but those are all her shots to call.

    Mark's guitar playing is technically fine. I think it's cheesy, uninspired and beneath her work, but if she didn't like it, it wouldn't be there. By contrast, I didn't enjoy Dan Phelps' live work at all, though I think it was objectively better; I bring it up because I reckon we'd see a lot more of the same if it were his work versus Mark's.

    So sure, call Tori Amos mediocre for her choices. And if you feel that way, you should, because that's on her. But nothing goes on her records without her say.

    & why would her knowing making any difference? If my supporters or clients or fans or whoever all hated my spouse, you can bet I wouldn't need or want to know it and knowing wouldn't compel me to do anything differently.
    'Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken. Therein lies hope; therein lies freedom.

  6. #21
    Hock...hockety-pockety? Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    I am not hearing what everyone else is this time. I think it's FINE.
    Agreed. It's not a great song, but it's far from terrible.

  7. #22
    Crimson Liberator Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    I am not hearing what everyone else is this time. I think it's FINE.
    I think the usual assumed "hive mind" of detractors aren't here to complain about it or don't care and people are looking to fill a negativity void. And that's cool, whatever, we feed on negativity and harp on things we don't have to. It's a web forum, that's what we do.

    I think I'm just surprised people are whinging that much over a soundtrack song they don't like when we had three atrocious albums back to back in the mid-late aughts and haven't seen anything that bad since. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
    'Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken. Therein lies hope; therein lies freedom.

  8. #23
    ancient savageries Andreas's Avatar
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    Calling someone unprofessional because they have a steady team they work with is ridiculous, no matter what you think of the result. Making music YOU don't like is not a character flaw. It doesn't make someone stupid, or lazy, or anything else. Knowing what year your next album is coming out is not "thinking like the major record labels".

    I'm kind of amazed that something as innocent as telling us that we can expect a new album next year can be interpreted as something negative. 99,9% of people are not Kate Bush. If we were, nothing would ever get done.
    Last edited by Andreas; 10-10-2016 at 05:08 PM.

  9. #24
    Crimson Liberator Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    I'm kind of amazed that something as innocent as telling us that we can expect a new album next year can be interpreted as something negative. 99,9% of people are not Kate Bush. If we were, nothing would ever get done.
    I'm in agreeance with you up to this point, as it's neither really here nor there how quickly we write, produce and release records in respect to whether or not "things get done."

    You can neatly put me in the camp that wishes she'd take longer breaks between records but you'll never hear me call her lazy, unprofessional or out of her mind for sticking to a work schedule that either works for her or a contract binds her to. I suspect the former, but even distribution deals have requirements.

    I'm just saying it's not absurd to wish she'd slow down the releases, be that for personal burnout or because a longer break hasn't happened and people have long believed it could yield a more developed work. It might not, but the sample size is currently zero.

    I do think it's absurd, conversely, to treat an industry vet like she has no concept or idea of what she's doing though. It's not as easy as any of the peanut gallery act like it is. On any level.
    'Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken. Therein lies hope; therein lies freedom.

  10. #25
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    This "rushing" assumption is downright silly. She hasn't put an album out since mid-2014, so she's had well over two years to write new material. Maybe not complete songs, Marianne-style, but knowing that she writes constantly, I think it's pretty much a given that at this point, she has the building blocks to make a new record. If that one comes out in mid or late 2017, it would mean over three years between studio albums, which is unprecedented in her career. She hasn't performed live at all in 2016, her 2015 tour was quite short; sure, she put out stuff like the Light Princess OCR and the remasters, but those didn't require creative effort. I'd say she's probably quite well-rested.

  11. #26
    DEEKWARE INDYPENDANTS!!! halo eighteen's Avatar
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    I think the "rushing" talk is due to Tori openly admitting that the album could go in a "very different" direction after Nov 8th. That implies that she'd be writing tons of material that's more politically-charged while still keeping with the same deadline, although I supposed it's possible that she does already have tons of songs written with either outcome in mind.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Carey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RG View Post
    I'm in agreeance with you up to this point, as it's neither really here nor there how quickly we write, produce and release records in respect to whether or not "things get done."

    You can neatly put me in the camp that wishes she'd take longer breaks between records but you'll never hear me call her lazy, unprofessional or out of her mind for sticking to a work schedule that either works for her or a contract binds her to. I suspect the former, but even distribution deals have requirements.

    I'm just saying it's not absurd to wish she'd slow down the releases, be that for personal burnout or because a longer break hasn't happened and people have long believed it could yield a more developed work. It might not, but the sample size is currently zero.

    I do think it's absurd, conversely, to treat an industry vet like she has no concept or idea of what she's doing though. It's not as easy as any of the peanut gallery act like it is. On any level.
    I agree on a lot of things, but let's just say it: releasing songs where you can hear editing cuts and where the vocal mixing shifts from left to right and changes in volume IS unprofessional. Plus, there is a obvious difference in quality between, say, choirgirl and ug. It can be a stylistic choice, but I'm positive this is not the case.

    Plus, I'm not reassured by the fact that UG was meant to be a "secret sonic selfies thing", because gold dust was also badly produced, even though it involved an important crew of musicists. The fact that she thought that her autotuned, almost mechanical doubled voice ("circles and circles") would fit a classical driven work makes me thinks she just suffers from a lack of taste.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell. I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days."

  13. #28
    Crimson Liberator Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo eighteen View Post
    I think the "rushing" talk is due to Tori openly admitting that the album could go in a "very different" direction after Nov 8th. That implies that she'd be writing tons of material that's more politically-charged while still keeping with the same deadline, although I supposed it's possible that she does already have tons of songs written with either outcome in mind.
    I think it's the latter. I strongly doubt she'd just suddenly write new material from scratch post-election and release an album of that on the same timetable. Maybe she will be inspired to begin writing new things, but I reckon she's been working on a lot of material that could shape up to be on either direction she wants to take the next album. Dan reiterated the point that she's constantly writing; this is true of most artists and I imagine she'll develop the songs she want on the next record based on what happens in the near future, politically or otherwise.
    'Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken. Therein lies hope; therein lies freedom.

  14. #29
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    As I said, building blocks. Bits and pieces of melody, piano riffs, rhymes. There's nothing preventing her from writing new, for instance politically themed lyrics for an existing song that was supposed to be about a relationship. She's just not that type of songwriter who at a certain point sits down at the piano for a month and comes up with twelve new songs out of the blue (and I'm pretty sure those do exist as well). She does, however, adapt the bits from the vault to the current album sound or theme. I mean, we know that songs like Martha's Foolish Ginger, Almost Rosey, Miracle, Snow Cherries from France have their origins in the Choirgirl era, bits of Pancake and Apollo's Frock are from 1996 etc; nevertheless, the finished products fit their release eras thematically and musically. I think that three years after her previous writing effort, she's at a stage where she's putting the blocks together and deciding the direction (again, both themes and sound) of the new material.

  15. #30
    I just hope whatever her new album is that there is a breath of new life in it. I know a lot of people LOVE UG and thought it was a breath of new life when it came out. I think it was more a return to classic Tori form.

    I would really like to see her experiment with a new sound. Even albums that we don't really love she did experiment with a new sound and you can kind of pick them out and place them on the albums they belong to.

    Whatever it is I hope she pushes herself in a new challenging direction. She seems to have more fun this way and seems to be better even if a song is just about flowers in her garden (Datura). She already worked with 'programed' sounds for UG to sound like real instruments. Why not make it a more 'current' sound this time around?

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