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Thread: Native Invader | Now Released

  1. #31
    Senior Member datura1452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RG View Post
    This is all so outlandish it hurts. Wat. Not sure if the corporate coffee comment is a dig but I don't get it. Otherwise, I mean dude, Mark does not do anything that Tori Amos does not give him permission or tell him to do. I know that the easy narrative is that Mark Hawley is this scourge in her work that has a mind of its own in shitty playing and creative choices but those are all her shots to call.

    Mark's guitar playing is technically fine. I think it's cheesy, uninspired and beneath her work, but if she didn't like it, it wouldn't be there. By contrast, I didn't enjoy Dan Phelps' live work at all, though I think it was objectively better; I bring it up because I reckon we'd see a lot more of the same if it were his work versus Mark's.

    So sure, call Tori Amos mediocre for her choices. And if you feel that way, you should, because that's on her. But nothing goes on her records without her say.

    & why would her knowing making any difference? If my supporters or clients or fans or whoever all hated my spouse, you can bet I wouldn't need or want to know it and knowing wouldn't compel me to do anything differently.
    I have nothing against Tori´s husband as a person, by no means. I don´t hate HIM, I hate his poor contributions to Tori´s music. That´s why I said as a musician. And Ok, Tori lets him be there and that means she likes her. But considering the top quality of Tori´s music in the past, I think her husband does not make her music any favour and it´s sad she doesn´t notice it. Considering it´s something that´s going to last for ages and it´s her legacy.
    Last edited by datura1452; 10-11-2016 at 10:02 AM.

  2. #32
    mat-a-tat-tat bratboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    I think I said this somewhere else - I've started to think of Tori like I think of Bruce Springsteen - brilliant brilliant early career, mid-career the work got a little dodgy, and the later work is hit or miss but still an untouchable live show. I think its actually a more apt comparison than PJ or Bjork or Kate Bush, who do, and have always done, very different work than Tori has done.
    And there are so many artists like this, whose output declined or at least mellowed later in their career. But most would kill to have even four highly regarded albums!

  3. #33
    I'm guessing a piano-only release will forever be unlikely. I'll still be keeping my hopes up knowing she still has it in her.
    Past a shooting star

  4. #34
    Cosmic Flavor Yo Jupiter's Avatar
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    I don't mind Mark's acoustic guitar. At all. I actually think it adds a certain warmth to the music. I just hate hate hate when they go "experimental". 16 Shades of Blue, Rose Dover, first part of Unrepentant Geraldines... all sound like a child was learning how to produce and add effects.

    Piano and strings are all I need. Some acoustic guitar is nice too. That's it.
    Не може со обични зборови да ја домами необичноста, зашто и необичните си имаат секој свој пат и тешко се среќаваат.

  5. #35
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    ^I actually quite like Mark's acoustic guitar too. Love the guitar in Ruby.
    Though strangely his best work is the electric guitar in ICSNY imo.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Carey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yo Jupiter View Post
    I don't mind Mark's acoustic guitar. At all. I actually think it adds a certain warmth to the music. I just hate hate hate when they go "experimental". 16 Shades of Blue, Rose Dover, first part of Unrepentant Geraldines... all sound like a child was learning how to produce and add effects.

    Piano and strings are all I need. Some acoustic guitar is nice too. That's it.
    Yes, I like his acoustic work too. It's not exceptional, but it doesn't need to be. Ruby is a treat. I don't mind his guitars on scarlet's walk, I really love it in Icsny, but it's where it started to get ugly. On wednesday and taxi ride, for example, it kinda sucks. It also ruins Virginia to me, for the way it's played (btw i never got if mcaladdin and mc intosh are the same person).

    On a side note, if find 16 shades of blue quite good, even the production. Not experimental at all, but successful.
    Last edited by Carey; 10-12-2016 at 10:26 AM.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell. I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days."

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    On a side note, if find 16 shades of blue quite good, even the production. Not experimental at all, but successful.
    I completely agree with this! I think this is the closest to Choirgirl/Venus production/sounds we have gotten since that era. This was such a treat and something I would love to hear more of on the next album.

  8. #38
    Senior Member SloppyJane's Avatar
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    I honestly don't see her ever leaving the Amos family band. Her husband means too much to her, and she would never do anything to remotely hurt his feelings.

    I mean, if your husband was a dentist, and you told him you wanted to try going to someone else to fill a cavity, it would undoubtedly hurt a little, especially after you've been getting cavity after cavity filled by him. Sure, she can be as diplomatic as possible, but at the very least it might create an awkward atmosphere at home.

    It's also probably a big bonding experience for them, and reaffirms their shared emotional connection. She's just gonna suddenly tell him to stay home while she's in the studio? I can't ever see that happening. Ever.
    Living in my own personal Cornwall bubble

  9. #39
    DEEKWARE INDYPENDANTS!!! halo eighteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    (btw i never got if mcaladdin and mc intosh are the same person).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_McIntosh

    No, Robbie McIntosh is a very real person with very real credentials.

  10. #40
    Threat level: Bitch in a wheelchair andy's Avatar
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    I have this feeling there's gonna be a song called 'Locker Room Talk' on this album.

  11. #41
    Princess Sparklefists Sansa Spark's Avatar
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    I expect to see a sea of these at whatever show I go to next tour.

  12. #42
    entertaining in its outrage Volta's Avatar
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    I do think we got a break from Mark with the classical stuff and the musical.
    I'm going to support Tori, regardless. But it would be nice to have a studio album where maybe even she isn't in control of the production. I think that is why I tend to like pop artists and a whole heck of a lot of rnb singers that may have every track produced by someone new. But even then I don't always think those songs are well written lyrically. But it doesn't take a great rhyme or play on words to sing a beautiful note.
    Yes, even I can misspell four-letter words. Can you imagine that pewp?

  13. #43
    Get Out The Dark Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    The thing is: Mark was involved with Choirgirl and Pele and Venus too. And Scarlet. So....what happened along the way? Listen, I am no Mark Hawley fan, and I think he's been a negative. But RG and others are right: Tori is the one calling the shots. Her crappier output is on HER. I think it's very difficult to maintain the sort of output she was doing in the 90s, and she's stumbled a bit. But 2011-now has been mostly decent, with moments of brilliance. For an artist in her 50s, we can't really expect more than that. Anyone who thinks she's suddenly going to reinvent the wheel is kidding themselves. I hope for an album that has songs that move me the way a few on UG did. The rest is gravy. I don't know why her aesthetic changed and obviously wish it hadn't, but from Scarlet on there was a shift for her in the sort of music she was interested in making.

    At least she's not acting the way she did in 2009 - that bothered me almost more than the music, and it was a time I couldn't bear to even go to a concert. Sad days.

    I think I said this somewhere else - I've started to think of Tori like I think of Bruce Springsteen - brilliant brilliant early career, mid-career the work got a little dodgy, and the later work is hit or miss but still an untouchable live show. I think its actually a more apt comparison than PJ or Bjork or Kate Bush, who do, and have always done, very different work than Tori has done.
    I agree with everything except the "for someone in their 50's, what can we expect" bit. I hope that I'm not creatively neutered in 14 years. David Bowie put out two EXCELLENT albums in his 60's. I don't think that age has to have anything to do with it ( the quality of your work) if you don't let it. I understand that it's been said many times that we responded to emotions that "young Tori" brought to her work that a mellowed out, happily married mom in her 50's just can't tap into. But the themes she worked with ( all except break-ups) are not just reserved for the young. The fiercest moment on UG for me is in the title track and "I'm gonna free myself". It works because I BELIEVE that's something she still deals with. The emotional resonance is there just as much as it's ever been....it's just that the vehicle for it isn't. Strip away that production, give it some "OOMPH" and I wouldn't have known, as an outsider, that it wasn't from her earlier albums.
    The Landslide Never Brought, Brought Me Down

  14. #44
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    Take the albums released by Fori Amos.
    Make a list of the best songs.
    You'll see that most of them are songs with minimal production (piano, voice, acoustic guitar, simple and subtle percussion).
    I don't think the problem is the songwriting per se. There's a problem of edition: she doesn't have to include aaaaaall the songs she recorded in each album.

    There is a big problem with the production. And what Kari said is what really confuses me: the same team that worked on FTCH-TVAB-SLG-SW is the same team that worked on the albums by Fori. It's so crazy to think that the same people who said "hey, Toast sounds great, let's leave it like that" a couple of years later said "yeah, this Code Red kicks ass, listen how furious and angry it is". It is really crazy.
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    I don't think that age has to have anything to do with it ( the quality of your work) if you don't let it.
    I agree. Kate bush and David Bowie are good examples. Age does not make people dull or drained.

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