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Thread: PWR BTTM

  1. #31
    Senior Member Jake's Avatar
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    I'm glad I'm not the only bothered by this. I don't know much about the band minus the Pitchfork segment they did, as well as hearing their new album. But wow. One allegation from one news source and they are completely done within days. If the allegation is true, then yes of course it makes sense for this kind of action. I can't shake the feeling of this being so black and white, though. Perky's point about this never happening to straight men is so valid and makes this sting even more.

  2. #32
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    It's not just that it's one anonymous allegation - it's how the band handled the accusation. They responded to the accusation with a statement of "email us if we raped you, also this is the first we heard of this". The latter statement was then swiftly disproved by related bands and one of their supporting band members. Then more allegations came out. At the very least we know that they lied about this being on their radar in their initial response to the accusations and hid the accusations from bandmates.

    And no, "innocent until proven guilty" is not a core value outside the courtroom - or at least not one that we widely agree upon.

  3. #33
    ice cream and pizza Father Lucifer's Avatar
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    The police should be involved and hopefully justice will prevail.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Andyland's Avatar
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    They cultivated a following that generally has zero-tolerance for this sort of thing...giving interviews about creating "safe spaces" at their shows, etc. I suppose it's a bit of a "live by the sword, die by the sword" phenomenon.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Nick's Avatar
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    If "innocent until proven guilty" isn't a core value, I should hope a strong inclination toward extensive information-gathering and truth-seeking is. I'm inclined to believe the accusers in this case from what little I've read so far, but it can at the same time be scary how quickly livelihoods can be ruined.

    (Also, throwing in the swastika picture and saying "plus he's an anti-semite" is stupid; it only dilutes the real issue, which is alleged sexual assault.)

  6. #36
    ancient savageries Andreas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    And no, "innocent until proven guilty" is not a core value outside the courtroom - or at least not one that we widely agree upon.
    I really don't agree with this. Of course its a core value outside the courtroom - it's the whole reason we have courts in the first place! The fact that we have a legal system at all is because we have agreed to certain values as a society - among those are the rule of law and the right of the accused to face their accuser in court, and yes - that there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.

  7. #37
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    Perky is right. If this person were arrested and charged with a crime, then obviously proof beyond a reasonable doubt would be the necessary standard. But what if there was a lawsuit? In civil matters, the standard is "a preponderance of the evidence". So, no, "innocent until proven guilty" is not a blanket standard. Not even in the legal world.

    And she's also right about the apparent amount of corroborating evidence in the community. So, yeah, it's extremely unlikely that this is a smear job.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

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  8. #38
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    You know what's the weirdest thing of this? That people say that they KNEW about this, but they started to leave the band and the tour just after they became public. That's suspicious, at least.
    Like, these guys, T-Rextasy (this is the first time in my life I read about them). They posted:

    We wish we could say these allegations come as a complete surprise, but that is not the truth. Around the time we agreed to a July tour w PWR BTTM, someone came to us privately + warned us that they had these experiences w Ben. They asked us not to share them publicly. At the time we felt we should continue w the tour.
    Oh, that's awesome, good for you guys, so somebody told you that somebody had been raped and you felt that you should continue with the tour? But just when it was public you decided to leave?
    I don't know, but after the Conor Oberst thing I decided not to grab my fork so fast.
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

  9. #39
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    Was there corroboration with the Conor Oberst thing?
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

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  10. #40
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve SFM View Post
    Was there corroboration with the Conor Oberst thing?
    Yes, actually the girl herself admitted publicly that she had been lying all the time.
    But this time is different, I know. Oberst said from the beginning that it was all bullshit; this time these guys (PWR BTTM, I mean) are silent and not saying much, except for that pretty vague declaration.
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

  11. #41
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    I really don't agree with this. Of course its a core value outside the courtroom - it's the whole reason we have courts in the first place! The fact that we have a legal system at all is because we have agreed to certain values as a society - among those are the rule of law and the right of the accused to face their accuser in court, and yes - that there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.
    No. The reason we have a standard of innocent until proven guilty in criminal cases is to put constraints on the government from wrongfully imprisoning people - not to protect people from the perfectly legal social opprobrium of fans, management companies, record labels and venues.

    If you want to talk about core values, isn't the right to associate with the people you choose to - and disassociate from those you believe stand for values against yours - more of a core value? That's all that the people dropping PWR BTTM are doing.

    Most crimes never end in conviction. That's especially true for sexual assault cases. Blanket-grafting "innocent until proven guilty" onto circumstances that don't call for that standard only adds to the culture of not believing victims when all they ask is to be believed, not for their attacker to be locked up.

  12. #42
    ancient savageries Andreas's Avatar
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    I don't agree, at least not fully. Of course people are allowed to associate with whoever they choose, and all the people jumping ship is perfectly within their right to do so. But I still find it troubling that everyone is acting as if these allegations have been proven. I do thing it should take more than a Facebook post and one person telling their story to the press for these extreme repercussions to unfold.

    As far as the allegations, what are the corroborating evidence? There's a some hearsay about this guys actions while drunk, and the Jezebel piece. It's unclear weather the same person who gave that statement also was the person who apparently had approached some people working with the band. I agree that it doesn't look good, but it seems thin to me so far. I didn't read the bands statement as a non-denial at all, but maybe that's just me.

    I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong about all of this. It just leaves me very uncomfortable.

    Edit: I do recognize that it's important to believe victims, which is why these cases are so difficult. I get that there are a lot of crimes that will never get recognized in a court of law. I just wonder weather the court of public opinion should be the alternative. At the same time, it's a good thing victims come forward. It's all just kind of maddening.
    Last edited by Andreas; 05-16-2017 at 08:22 AM.

  13. #43
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Sorry man - I feel like you deeply misunderstand both the purpose of the innocent until proven guilty standard and the way the standard works itself. It's impossible to apply it to the court of public opinion because the relevant facts are not going to be discovered and tried the way they are in a courtroom. We're not only never going to have all the information, we're never going to have anything more than a fraction of the information, and what we do get is going to play out over social media. Unless video footage comes out it's not going to hit the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard anyway.

    Also, disastrous as this is for PWR BTTM, this is nothing like being imprisoned as convicted of a crime, especially a sex crime. Their music career is basically over and their reputation is fucked as hell. That is so many levels lower than the human rights violations, government invasion, systematic denying of housing and resources that someone convicted of a sex crime gets hit with. They lost their fan base and label from their rarified position as musicians, boo boo - I work with a lot of people on the sex offender registry as a lawyer and it offends me to see all this handwringing over PWR BTTM when they've lost relatively little for far worse allegations than half my clients.

    Also, there's been plenty of corroboration that the band at least covered up the allegations.

    Also sorry I'm grumpy about this, it isn't personal. I'm just a thousand percent over people not understanding the difference between the court of public opinion and the actual criminal courts and using it to protect abusers from relatively light punishment.
    Last edited by Perky Compson; 05-16-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  14. #44
    ancient savageries Andreas's Avatar
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    Well, I don't think you get my point at all, but I certainly don't claim to be a lawyer and I didn't equate the court of public opinion with actual criminal courts. And I'm not trying to "protect abusers from relatively light punishment".
    Last edited by Andreas; 05-16-2017 at 09:48 PM.

  15. #45
    the unhappy worker waitressboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    And I'm not trying to "protect abusers from relatively light punishment".
    I guess that part is something that nobody has implied in here. It's just that it's not possible to compare that. And in this case, we still don't know what's really happening (but tbh, their silence is... strange, idk, I think that if I were innocent I would say it out loud). We do know that their career as musicians is ruined for life. Even the other guy that I can't remember his name, he won't be able to make a professional career as a musician. But that's not making a comparison with the real punishment that an abuser deserves, fuck no.

    (Off topic: I was so sure that both guys were gay.)
    When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.

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