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Thread: "Nothing Wrong With Treating an Asshole Like an Asshole" - an incivility thread

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    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    "Nothing Wrong With Treating an Asshole Like an Asshole" - an incivility thread

    “When you’re violent and cursing and screaming and blocking me from walking into a movie, there’s something wrong,” she said. “The next people are going to come with guns. That’s what’s going to happen.”
    Pam Bondi - Politico "The left loses its cool" - there witohut a shred of self-awareness or irony. But fuck her, she shouldn't be allowed to go see a movie in peace.

    As it's all anyone is talking about these last few days, why don't we have a discussion about civility? It seems that a lot of people are making the argument that no-one should be confronted or challenged for their actions in a way that may discomfort them. People are really out there in big old 2018 saying that by exercising one's rights to freedom of speech and freedom to protest, they are behaving badly, being unruly, further polarising debate.

    A lot of this talk is coming from the right as they actively support the Presidency of a man who is pathologically unable to disagree with anyone without insulting or threatening them. I expect that. What staggers me is supposed opponents of the regime, centrists tutting and wagging their fingers. Maxine Waters has been admonished by Nancy Pelosi for encouraging people to challenge those who work for Trump; Pelosi said such behaviour's unacceptable.



    So what the fuck is acceptable? Stay home, don't cause a fuss, vote the right way in November and let that be the sum total of your involvement in the democratic process?

    This is a good piece up at The Root (with a nice Sarah Sanders as Arseface photoshop). I think it makes the case very well for why challenging people like Sanders and Kristjen Neilsen isn't only acceptable but righteous. Also, this:

    I am often told that turning the other cheek is better than an eye for an eye. But everyone who ever told me that had two eyes. Their cheeks were never stinging from just having been slapped. How the hell would they know?
    I'd say this extends to members of the public acting egregiously, like #BBQBecky and #PermitPatty - calling the police on black people (an eight year old girl ffs) can end up with people injured or worse, so I think putting people like that on notice is justified. You want to be so proud of your racism that you call the cops because a black person is near you, then you can own it when every right-minded person has called you out on that shit.

    No social change was ever affected, no power was ever redistributed, because someone asked politely. Bigots should be too afraid and ashamed to go outdoors. This decade, this century even, the left have been too civil, and this is where it's got us.

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    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    So what the fuck is acceptable? Stay home, don't cause a fuss, vote the right way in November and let that be the sum total of your involvement in the democratic process?
    No easy answer possible, probably. In the Netherlands it is considered extremely bad manners to discuss politics when in a place where political alignment is not currently up for discussion or immediately relevant to everyone present, such as in public places. However, campaigning over here is also extremely different; it is never focused that much on people. Politicians that would attack the personal life of other politicians probably lose all their votes instantly. Not the case in the USA of course, where the main strategy seems to be attacking the personal life of other politicians; that kind of sets the tone and example for how people treat each other. I think a restaurant owner should be allowed to refuse service to any politician.... but should you be allowed to disturb the peace of an establishment if you are both just visiting and politics are sort of irrelevant? No, I don't think you should, that borders on instigating aggression, and could even hurt the immediate business of the place where you are (and thus is disrespectful to the people owning and visiting the place).

    Don't cause a fuss if it is not your place, but don't stay at home either. Peaceful protesting is very important. You can't just blindly trust the democratic system; Hitler was also chosen through a democratic process.
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    Find a way to get in the way. MTC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post

    Stay home, don't cause a fuss, ...
    I. Will. Not.
    I have not.
    I call them out when I see them. I no longer give a fuck and I will not only fight as dirty as they, I will make them eat that dirt. Bigots absolutely should be afraid and ashamed. Civility has it's time and place, but not now. Not now. I'm old enough to remember the bad old days and I will NOT give up the gains from then. Fuck that.

    See you in the gulag.
    And the ghosts that we knew will flicker from view
    And we'll live a long life

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    Sleeps to dream entropy's Avatar
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    I think people are confusing civility with submissiveness.

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    Administrator Ryan's Avatar
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    The lopsidedness of it all infuriates me. This is another example of the right chastising the left for doing 20% of what the right gets away with. Marching in the streets with guns and neo-Nazis? Fine. Asking Sarah Huckabee Sanders to leave a restaurant? Calls for civility from the left, and now she has to have Secret Service protection because she feels threatened.

    Honestly, the left always trying to take the high road might be winning some kind of feel-good moral victory but it’s bringing a knife to a gun fight. The right is winning the war. “When they go low, we go high” is bullshit. How about “when they use dog whistles and gaslighting and strawmen, we call them out on it in a big, loud way.”


    I’m honestly so sick of this shit. I’m tired of being tone-policed by actual deplorable people who have spent years denigrating gays, minorities, and women. I’m tired of being told we need to reach out to Trump voters and try to see things from their perspective when most are either old racist cunts or 20 year old 4chan edgelords. And I’m SUPER tired of this argument that using profanity is somehow tarnishing the points I try to make when our president talks about grabbing pussy and his supporters literally chanted and printed shirts that said “Trump That Bitch!” in response to Hillary Clinton.

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    strike every chord that you feel Owen's Avatar
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    ^ Spot on, Ryan. I'm never civil about these things. I remember when Prop 8 was going down, here in CA, and people dared to tell me my anger was just as hateful. They were not prepared for the flames I threw their way.

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    Sleeps to dream entropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post

    I’m honestly so sick of this shit. I’m tired of being tone-policed by actual deplorable people who have spent years denigrating gays, minorities, and women. I’m tired of being told we need to reach out to Trump voters and try to see things from their perspective when most are either old racist cunts or 20 year old 4chan edgelords. And I’m SUPER tired of this argument that using profanity is somehow tarnishing the points I try to make when our president talks about grabbing pussy and his supporters literally chanted and printed shirts that said “Trump That Bitch!” in response to Hillary Clinton.



    Exactly! The left isn't being asked to be civil. The left is being told to shut up!
    Last edited by entropy; 06-27-2018 at 02:57 PM.

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    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Marching neo-Nazis are never fine; people should counter-protest with all their might and ugly words they have. In a protest or counter-protest, I don't expect people to use civil words or politeness, it should be about shouting and yelling and doing whatever you need to get the point across - using fugly words in this context is completely civil. But should we start using physical violence if they are not? Probably unwise.

    It feels like the only counter-protest these days is people sitting on their butts ranting angrily about it on social media. How convenient. It will amount to nothing. Disturbing everyone's peace in a restaurant or cinema because you happen to encounter someone you disagree with feels like that same kind of "convenience" protesting to me. If you disagree with that person so much, why wait for a random encounter to make your point?

    If I am enjoying a Guide Michelin starred meal, I expect strangers at other tables to follow etiquette. No exclusions. Stuff like;
    - No loud voices
    - No transmission of bodily fluids between humans
    - No phone conversations.
    - Etc.
    Go without saying. Again, I don't mind if someone is refused entrance to a place, but if you are both guests, behave like guests. Aside from that I'd be heavily annoyed if other people would start yelling at each other about politics, the implications are actually reaching far - because who decides where the line is drawn? What if the next step is actual violence? Over here, violent protesting and succesful terrorism is mostly left-wing according to our intelligence agencies. Pim Fortuyn was assassinated by a leftist extremist with a handgun when he was returning from a radio interview. Recently, the cfo of my company in Germany was ambushed during a stroll in the park on his way to the bakery - an attempt on his life was made; they threw sulphuric acid in his face, poilitical motives are suspected. Where is that line between uncivilized and barbaric?

    What entropy said really sticks with me. Be civil? Always. Be submissive? Never.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

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    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Marching neo-Nazis are never fine; people should counter-protest with all their might and ugly words they have. In a protest or counter-protest, I don't expect people to use civil words or politeness, it should be about shouting and yelling and doing whatever you need to get the point across - using fugly words in this context is completely civil.
    Are you suggesting that protest be restricted to a certain time or location? That spontaneous protest should be discouraged or banned?

    If I am enjoying a Guide Michelin starred meal, I expect strangers at other tables to follow etiquette. No exclusions. Stuff like;
    - No loud voices
    - No transmission of bodily fluids between humans
    - No phone conversations.
    - Etc.
    Go without saying. Again, I don't mind if someone is refused entrance to a place, but if you are both guests, behave like guests. Aside from that I'd be heavily annoyed if other people would start yelling at each other about politics, the implications are actually reaching far - because who decides where the line is drawn? What if the next step is actual violence?
    Disturbing a cosseted middle-class racist at a restaurant isn't a slippery slope to throwing acid in their face.

    Separating politics from daily life is a luxury, and is in itself political. It's 2018, even going to a Michelin-starred restaurant is political after a decade of austerity. If I saw someone like Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt while eating out, I'd give 'em shit. What they do hurts people, I'm not interested in their comfort in a public place.

    I think this sums it up for me, from author Warren Ellis' newsletter (not the Bad Seeds violinist) after Richard Spencer got punched in the face:

    All I can tell you is, from my perspective as an old English socialist and cultural liberal who is probably way to the woolly left from most of you and actually has a medal for services to free speech — yes, it is always correct to punch Nazis. They lost the right to not be punched in the face when they started spouting genocidal ideologies that in living memory killed millions upon millions of people. And anyone who stands up and respectfully applauds their perfect right to say these things should probably also be punched, because they are clearly surplus to human requirements. Nazis do not need a hug. Nazis do not need to be indulged. Their world doesn’t get better until you’ve been removed from it. Your false equivalences mean nothing. Their agenda is always, always, extermination. Nazis need a punch in the face.

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    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Are you suggesting that protest be restricted to a certain time or location? That spontaneous protest should be discouraged or banned?
    Can't know that for where you are, but it is literally the law over here. If you want to protest, you'll have to get permission, you'll be assigned a spot and security. If you want to counter protest, you'll have to get permission, you'll also be assigned a spot and security. Groupforming in public is forbidden in most important public spaces. If you disturb peace in a restaurant, the waiters will probably immediately ask you to leave. They don't need an actual reason for asking someone to leave, if you don't do as you are asked the police will be called and take you away for "tresspassing" (and if you think it is unjust you can work it out in a courtroom).

    It works, mostly because I can trust government and police over here. I'm afraid the UK and the USA can no longer say the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Disturbing a cosseted middle-class racist at a restaurant isn't a slippery slope to throwing acid in their face. Separating politics from daily life is a luxury, and is in itself political.
    Perhaps, but tell me exactly where you think the line is? What is the most extreme form of disturbing daily life you think is still acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    It's 2018, even going to a Michelin-starred restaurant is political after a decade of austerity.
    Maybe it is if you are a profilic politician, but for most people it is not political at all. How people spend money in their private life should be nobody's business but their own. I haven't had a car for 8 years. I don't have any children. That saves me a lot of money each month. So what that me and a few friends save up specifically to visit an expensive restaurant once every few months? Who is anyone to have a moral opinion on how I spend my money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    If I saw someone like Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt while eating out, I'd give 'em shit. What they do hurts people, I'm not interested in their comfort in a public place.
    What about the people at other tables around them that have nothing to do with them? Like tourists who don't even know who they are? You think it is justified to disturb all their peace too?
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    Am I missing something? Was someone in a super high end restaurant when protesters started yelling at them? The only thing I'm aware of is when a restaurant owner asked Sarah Sanders to leave. No yelling or protesting. In Florida, people were confronting Pam Bondi as she was LEAVING a movie theater. So where is this standing up that the left has finally started doing encroaching on people who just want to go out to a $100 entree meal??

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    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Am I missing something? Was someone in a super high end restaurant when protesters started yelling at them? The only thing I'm aware of is when a restaurant owner asked Sarah Sanders to leave. No yelling or protesting. In Florida, people were confronting Pam Bondi as she was LEAVING a movie theater. So where is this standing up that the left has finally started doing encroaching on people who just want to go out to a $100 entree meal??
    The article posted says "Two senior Trump administration officials were heckled at restaurants. A third was denied service." They don't give the names, so I don't know what situation that referes to, I assumed that people were eating as guests and other guests disturbed the peace. Does it matter if it is a super high end restaurant or not? I think it doesn't. I just gave an extreme example to show why I personally think etiquette is important and universally applicable.
    The article that Pete posted starts with "‘When you’re violent and cursing and screaming and blocking me from walking into a movie, there’s something wrong". So that is why I responded like I did (I don't really know who these people are).
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

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    Administrator Ryan's Avatar
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    They are referring to DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and Trump's senior policy adviser Stephen Miller, who both got booed and shouted out of Mexican restaurants last week.

    But make no mistake, after Miller helped to craft the directive of separating immigrant children and their parents, and Nielsen stood up there at the press briefing and fucking lied her face off regarding its origin and implementation, it was no coincidence that they both showed up at Mexican restaurants. That is pure trolling. It was done to intentionally rile the left into attacking them so they could cry about how intolerant the left is being. That's what they've been doing since the beginning of this administration. Remember when the child separation thing first came up and Ivanka suddenly posted pictures on Instagram holding her kids, talking about how wonderful it was as a mother to just spend the day being close to your kids? Yeah. All this shit is intentional. I hope a meteor hits the White House.

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    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    They are referring to DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and Trump's senior policy adviser Stephen Miller, who both got booed and shouted out of Mexican restaurants last week.

    But make no mistake, after Miller helped to craft the directive of separating immigrant children and their parents, and Nielsen stood up there at the press briefing and fucking lied her face off regarding its origin and implementation, it was no coincidence that they both showed up at Mexican restaurants. That is pure trolling. It was done to intentionally rile the left into attacking them so they could cry about how intolerant the left is being. That's what they've been doing since the beginning of this administration. Remember when the child separation thing first came up and Ivanka suddenly posted pictures on Instagram holding her kids, talking about how wonderful it was as a mother to just spend the day being close to your kids? Yeah. All this shit is intentional. I hope a meteor hits the White House.
    That does explain a lot. A politician should set an example, and be aware of such sensitive things. In this case it sounds like they were making a political statement themselves; they provoked the reaction politically (like the Melania jacket) and got what they deserved.

    So I wrote what I wrote in part because months back I was having a cocktail in the sun at some public grande café, and a few tables from me sat down our Prime Minister. I was kind of shocked to behold a politician of such stature enjoying a beer in one of my fav shabby places, but why not? I and many others disagree with him on many points, but he was mostly left alone. Aside from some people asking to take a selfie with him, to which he kindly complied. I remember I was texting with Rabih at that very moment, and then I briefly entertained the idea of walking over and starting a conversation about politics. Only because the atmosphere was so informal. I ultimately didn't, but I imagine it would have been a very polite conversation, and if he would have said he wasn't up for it at the moment, I would have just respected that. I guess that is the big difference; he is a civilized person and always polite, always ready to answer people - he just deserves that kind of respect. Many politicians in the USA I guess simply deserve the opposite because they are far from respectful themselves.
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    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Perhaps, but tell me exactly where you think the line is? What is the most extreme form of disturbing daily life you think is still acceptable?
    If someone in public life is complicit in harming people, then fuck it, I want their daily life disturbed morning 'til night. I want them hounded every minute until they quit. There need to be consequences for the damage they do.

    Maybe it is if you are a profilic politician, but for most people it is not political at all. How people spend money in their private life should be nobody's business but their own. I haven't had a car for 8 years. I don't have any children. That saves me a lot of money each month. So what that me and a few friends save up specifically to visit an expensive restaurant once every few months? Who is anyone to have a moral opinion on how I spend my money?
    I think the political is the very fabric of our lives, whether people acknowledge it or not. That doesn't mean I'm gonna sit in judgement of people I don't know doing xyz with their resources, but I don't think there's anything we do now that is completely apolitical.

    What about the people at other tables around them that have nothing to do with them? Like tourists who don't even know who they are? You think it is justified to disturb all their peace too?
    Yes.

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