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Thread: "Nothing Wrong With Treating an Asshole Like an Asshole" - an incivility thread

  1. #16
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    If someone in public life is complicit in harming people, then fuck it, I want their daily life disturbed morning 'til night. I want them hounded every minute until they quit. There need to be consequences for the damage they do.
    That is probably how it should be, but things are rarely that black and white. It is not like the people you politically disagree with are all operating extermination camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    I think the political is the very fabric of our lives, whether people acknowledge it or not. That doesn't mean I'm gonna sit in judgement of people I don't know doing xyz with their resources, but I don't think there's anything we do now that is completely apolitical.
    Politics decide a great deal of how you are able to live. However, people devoting all their time and resources to political activism that are uninterested in investing in their own hedonism are almost non-existant. A friend of mine once said "I don't get it, why do people buy fireworks? People should donate that money to charity". I thought, well, you just bought a new audio set for an exhorbitant amount of money imho, just to listen to music - it is simply that you think your hedonist economic choices are morally better than someone else's - which they aren't.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member JAE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    The lopsidedness of it all infuriates me. This is another example of the right chastising the left for doing 20% of what the right gets away with. Marching in the streets with guns and neo-Nazis? Fine. Asking Sarah Huckabee Sanders to leave a restaurant? Calls for civility from the left, and now she has to have Secret Service protection because she feels threatened.

    Honestly, the left always trying to take the high road might be winning some kind of feel-good moral victory but it’s bringing a knife to a gun fight. The right is winning the war. “When they go low, we go high” is bullshit. How about “when they use dog whistles and gaslighting and strawmen, we call them out on it in a big, loud way.”


    I’m honestly so sick of this shit. I’m tired of being tone-policed by actual deplorable people who have spent years denigrating gays, minorities, and women. I’m tired of being told we need to reach out to Trump voters and try to see things from their perspective when most are either old racist cunts or 20 year old 4chan edgelords. And I’m SUPER tired of this argument that using profanity is somehow tarnishing the points I try to make when our president talks about grabbing pussy and his supporters literally chanted and printed shirts that said “Trump That Bitch!” in response to Hillary Clinton.
    100%

    Two years ago I would have been in the "we should take the higher ground" camp, but things are different now. This is not just a government to oppose politically and wait for a new one to get in. These people are systematically tearing down the foundations of the civilised world and redefining social norms that have taken decades of sacrifice to build. This is not an act of opposition, its an act of resistance. It's speaking truth to power at a time when the safeguards designed to do that are letting us down.

    Most importantly for me it's a reminder to the people targeted and to wider society that this time and the actions of this regime are not normal, and we let them be normalised at our own peril. Every small act of resistance like this allows more room for others to take place, and reminds us all that there are others out there who do not support this. It may not be a huge act in itself but at least this restaurant owner will be able to look back at this era in the way we look back at people in the 1930s and say, in my own small way I stood against this and refused to contribute to this horror becoming normalised.

    This is equally relevant to the UK and anywhere else that has seen fascism and populism become emboldened.
    Last edited by JAE; 06-27-2018 at 06:20 PM.

  3. #18
    strike every chord that you feel Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    They are referring to DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and Trump's senior policy adviser Stephen Miller, who both got booed and shouted out of Mexican restaurants last week.

    But make no mistake, after Miller helped to craft the directive of separating immigrant children and their parents, and Nielsen stood up there at the press briefing and fucking lied her face off regarding its origin and implementation, it was no coincidence that they both showed up at Mexican restaurants. That is pure trolling. It was done to intentionally rile the left into attacking them so they could cry about how intolerant the left is being. That's what they've been doing since the beginning of this administration. Remember when the child separation thing first came up and Ivanka suddenly posted pictures on Instagram holding her kids, talking about how wonderful it was as a mother to just spend the day being close to your kids? Yeah. All this shit is intentional. I hope a meteor hits the White House.
    YES!!!

    Look at the hysterical resistance the Republicans engaged in when Barack Obama was president. And over what? Seriously? What policies were so fucking terrible under Obama that warranted that? And NOW LOOK at the state of this country. Look at this administration, chock full of racists like a boil engorged with pus. Look at the assaults on our government from within. Entire departments deliberately underfunded and understaffed, and those now in charge deliberately and systematically dismantling said departments. The effects on human rights, equality, the environment. The cozying up to actual murderous dictators while alienating and attacking our allies. All the while trolling and gas-lighting us and then demanding that we be civil? FUCK. THAT. The stakes are too high. We are already seeing the damages down to our courts and I think, in that area, we are truly fucked for generations. I fear there's no going back from that now, blue wave or no.

  4. #19
    Loves ponies. Hates phonies. Regina Phalange's Avatar
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    You know what is really pissing me off about this today and yesterday? It's the disingenuous argument about it being similar to jim crow laws and these tiki-torching motherfuckers feigning outrage about how it's a slippery slope to whites-only lunch counters again. You incel neckbeard whiteboys don't give a shit about black people.

    Assholes are not a protected class.

    The staff at the Red Hen asked the owner to remove SHS because of the Trump administrations policies for Trans people. They are the real heroes of the common people.

    Also? I don't remember it but some bakery refused to have Biden in in like 2012. You know why I don't remember and you probably don't either? Cause we don't care. We're not virtue signalling over bullshit.

    These people should NEVER be able to show their faces in public again. No violence, but fuck them. No shoes, no shirts, no scruples, no service.

  5. #20
    Sleeps to dream entropy's Avatar
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    An important watch

  6. #21
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    That is probably how it should be, but things are rarely that black and white. It is not like the people you politically disagree with are all operating extermination camps.
    Do you want to wait until they are operating camps? Although in the UK, even Yarl's Wood barely troubles the national conscience, so fuck, I don't even know.

    it is simply that you think your hedonist economic choices are morally better than someone else's - which they aren't.
    Dunno about hedonistic, strictly speaking, but I don't disagree with you here. It's a big topic, though, not sure how to begin to unpack it here. But yeah, pretty much everyone is selfish, and sometimes that's okay and sometimes it isn't. It's almost impossible to do anything that doesn't have a negative impact somehow, and I guess it's at a remove and I'm not actively harming someone, so I make my peace with it and try and do what I can otherwise to address the balance. The trouble being that the people with real power to affect positive change won't, and more often work against that objective.

    It's about power structures, and if someone has that power and misuses it, then they need to be challenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    Assholes are not a protected class.
    My new motto!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    They are referring to DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and Trump's senior policy adviser Stephen Miller, who both got booed and shouted out of Mexican restaurants last week.

    But make no mistake, after Miller helped to craft the directive of separating immigrant children and their parents, and Nielsen stood up there at the press briefing and fucking lied her face off regarding its origin and implementation, it was no coincidence that they both showed up at Mexican restaurants. That is pure trolling. It was done to intentionally rile the left into attacking them so they could cry about how intolerant the left is being. That's what they've been doing since the beginning of this administration. Remember when the child separation thing first came up and Ivanka suddenly posted pictures on Instagram holding her kids, talking about how wonderful it was as a mother to just spend the day being close to your kids? Yeah. All this shit is intentional. I hope a meteor hits the White House.
    Oh yeah...OMFG...they enforce a policy of zero tolerance on illegal immigration, separate children from their families...then have the nerve to go out to a Mexican restaurant. Sorry, but if the people eating at a restaurant boo and heckle you, I have no issues with that. GTFO.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    That does explain a lot. A politician should set an example, and be aware of such sensitive things. In this case it sounds like they were making a political statement themselves; they provoked the reaction politically (like the Melania jacket) and got what they deserved.

    So I wrote what I wrote in part because months back I was having a cocktail in the sun at some public grande café, and a few tables from me sat down our Prime Minister. I was kind of shocked to behold a politician of such stature enjoying a beer in one of my fav shabby places, but why not? I and many others disagree with him on many points, but he was mostly left alone. Aside from some people asking to take a selfie with him, to which he kindly complied. I remember I was texting with Rabih at that very moment, and then I briefly entertained the idea of walking over and starting a conversation about politics. Only because the atmosphere was so informal. I ultimately didn't, but I imagine it would have been a very polite conversation, and if he would have said he wasn't up for it at the moment, I would have just respected that. I guess that is the big difference; he is a civilized person and always polite, always ready to answer people - he just deserves that kind of respect. Many politicians in the USA I guess simply deserve the opposite because they are far from respectful themselves.
    Here's the deal...If this was anyone BUT the current administration, I'd agree with you. Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc...when they held office they were "normal" people, just doing what they thought was best for the country with no actual malice. Trump is a circus act, and always has been. He's a piece of shit. He purposely trolls. He purposely incites drama. He encourages hate speech and racism. He encourages nationalism and division in our country. So if he sits down somewhere, he deserves EVERY SINGLE VULGARITY THROWN AT HIM. This man is literally ruining our country. In the past people say that as hyperbole, but now, it's real. I couldn't careless if you're out having a meal and someone disturbs you cause they're so incensed by his policies and words that they need to verbally protest and insult him. There are more important things that need to happen in this country than concern over you (you, in general) having a nice quiet meal. Those people who are eating their foie gras need to see how this administration is hurting us.

  9. #24
    Loves ponies. Hates phonies. Regina Phalange's Avatar
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    Tips For Staying Civil While Debating Child Prisons

    Recent incidents of Trump officials being confronted in public for their role in the administration’s separation and imprisonment of immigrant families have driven renewed concern about the lack of civility in U.S. politics. The Onion presents tips for staying civil in a debate about child prisons.

    Avoid unkind generalizations like equating the jailing of ethnic minorities with some malevolent form of fascism.

    Consider that we all have different perspectives stemming from things like age, ethnicity, or level of racism.

    Recall that violently rejecting a tyrannical government goes against everything our forefathers believed in.

    Find common ground by recognizing that some kids are huge assholes.

    Make sure any protests are peaceful, silent, and completely out of sight of anyone who could actually affect government policy.

    Give your political opponents the benefit of the doubt by letting this play out for 20 years and seeing if it gets any better on its own.

    Realize that every pressing social issue is solved through civil discourse if you ignore virtually all of human history.

    Remind yourself that you’re just two people having a cocktail at the same D.C. party and that politics is a game to you.

    Avoid painting with a broad brush. Not everyone in favor of zero-tolerance immigration wants to see children in cages—it’s more likely that they just don’t care.

  10. #25
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Do you want to wait until they are operating camps?
    That is the crux of the problem right there; you cannot convict people for crimes they haven't committed yet, or may never commit.

    Is Trump a threat to democracy? Yes. That much is obvious in how he treats the press, facts and how he is verbally empowering authoritarian regimes in the world (Russia, China, Turkey).
    Has Trump commited 'crimes against humanity'? Maybe, with the children - I read about a Californian senator definitely saying so.
    Would those 'crimes against humanity' be as bad as those Hitler commited? Not by a long shot, saying that is a minimization of the genocidal evil that made the 20th century go down in history as the bloodiest century in human history; Hitler succesfully ordered the annihilation of 6 million jewish civilians, 6 million russian civilians, 3 million non-Jewish poles, 3 million Russian prisoners of war, half a million Serbs, half a million Romani, hundreds of thousands freemasons, tens of thousands Slovenes and gays, the list goes on. Former nazi-occupied territories live with the remnants of that reality every day.
    Will he ever commit such crimes? Maybe. Maybe not.

    Anyway, on the first account alone, his presidency has to be stopped as soon as possible. I'd expect massive protesting everywhere. Why is that not really happening, or am I missing it? In most EU-countries I think what Trump is doing would invoke massive revolts, not just spontaneous micro-demonstration and discussions on whether what is civil and what is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Dunno about hedonistic, strictly speaking, but I don't disagree with you here. It's a big topic, though, not sure how to begin to unpack it here. But yeah, pretty much everyone is selfish, and sometimes that's okay and sometimes it isn't. It's almost impossible to do anything that doesn't have a negative impact somehow, and I guess it's at a remove and I'm not actively harming someone, so I make my peace with it and try and do what I can otherwise to address the balance. The trouble being that the people with real power to affect positive change won't, and more often work against that objective.

    It's about power structures, and if someone has that power and misuses it, then they need to be challenged.
    Well maybe we can disucss it some other time, it is definitely thought provoking and worth discussing on its own. Balance is probably the key. You say everything is political, I'd say everything is economical - not just confined to finance - also factoring in politics, freedom and psychology affecting the society and the individual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Here's the deal...If this was anyone BUT the current administration, I'd agree with you. Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc...when they held office they were "normal" people, just doing what they thought was best for the country with no actual malice. Trump is a circus act, and always has been. He's a piece of shit. He purposely trolls. He purposely incites drama. He encourages hate speech and racism. He encourages nationalism and division in our country. So if he sits down somewhere, he deserves EVERY SINGLE VULGARITY THROWN AT HIM. This man is literally ruining our country. In the past people say that as hyperbole, but now, it's real. I couldn't careless if you're out having a meal and someone disturbs you cause they're so incensed by his policies and words that they need to verbally protest and insult him.
    Doesn't sound like we are in disagreement, as I said many politicians in the USA don't deserve respect. And, as I said, higher ranking officials can't be expected to be able to seperate their politics from their everyday life, especially not Trump. I personally don't need a lecture on Trump; I hate him. He is a vile creature, liar and a fraud in one of the most powerful positions in the world, a true nightmare come to life. He is a threat to the democracy of the USA and to the world at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    There are more important things that need to happen in this country than concern over you (you, in general) having a nice quiet meal. Those people who are eating their foie gras need to see how this administration is hurting us.
    That wasn't my initial point, though. Whether it be haute cuisine or ihop, when you are on private property *in principal* you should respect first and foremost the (civilian) sovereignity of the owner or people acting on behalf of the owner. As we established above, it is kind of contextual. If you see Trump or his cronies responsible for hurting the children eating a Mexican Tres Leches Pancake (or eating whatever) please do hurl some insults at them for me.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  11. #26
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Would those 'crimes against humanity' be as bad as those Hitler commited? Not by a long shot, saying that is a minimization of the genocidal evil that made the 20th century go down in history as the bloodiest century in human history; Hitler succesfully ordered the annihilation of 6 million jewish civilians, 6 million russian civilians, 3 million non-Jewish poles, 3 million Russian prisoners of war, half a million Serbs, half a million Romani, hundreds of thousands freemasons, tens of thousands Slovenes and gays, the list goes on. Former nazi-occupied territories live with the remnants of that reality every day.
    Strongly disagree. Hitler's evil didn't suddenly begin in 1941, he spent a good decade or so laying the foundations. We look at those atrocities, and those committed by other dictators, and we rightly say "never again". If we ignore the warning signs, if we wring our hands and say, "well, no-one's being gassed right now," then that is a betrayal of everyone who suffered.

    eta: My local MP (a smug Tory shitter who deserves a wedgie at the very least) said something similar to me - I e-mailed him this link, which I've had in my bookmarks for the last few years and frequently revisit - Ur-Facism by Umberto Eco. He thanked me and said it looked interesting, but I doubt he ever read it.

    eta 2: the Nazis actually based a lot of their segregationist shit on Jim Crow laws - they loved how racist America was. Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, Sandra Bland, Ferguson, Flint - don't kid yourself that America isn't still that country.

    In most EU-countries I think what Trump is doing would invoke massive revolts, not just spontaneous micro-demonstration and discussions on whether what is civil and what is not.
    I wouldn't count on that.

    You say everything is political, I'd say everything is economical
    How is economics not inherently political? 1793 called, Louis XVI needs a word.
    Last edited by Pete!; 06-29-2018 at 09:15 AM.

  12. #27
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Strongly disagree. Hitler's evil didn't suddenly begin in 1941, he spent a good decade or so laying the foundations. We look at those atrocities, and those committed by other dictators, and we rightly say "never again". If we ignore the warning signs, if we wring our hands and say, "well, no-one's being gassed right now," then that is a betrayal of everyone who suffered.

    eta 2: the Nazis actually based a lot of their segregationist shit on Jim Crow laws - they loved how racist America was. Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, Sandra Bland, Ferguson, Flint - don't kid yourself that America isn't still that country.
    I've already said that I think Trump should be stopped. I never said you should ignore warning signs or be inert - I think people should do the contrary and said so in my last post. I just think it is a stretch to compare it to the nazi regime at this point in time, it is still a democracy (that should be reformed) for what it is worth.

    I also know that racism is still a big issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    I wouldn't count on that.
    Let's hope it won't have to come to that. For the USA time is up and I'm frankly kind of shocked by the inertia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    How is economics not inherently political? 1793 called, Louis XVI needs a word.
    Well lol, economy started way before the french revolution, that is for sure. But like I said, I don't mean "economy" in the traditional sense. If I decide to sleep late, I probably do it to try and enhance my wellbeing - my physical and psychological improvement being the attempted "economic" result on a personal level. Is it also a political decision? Doubtful. That is how I think that everything is economy.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  13. #28
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Okay, obviously economics predates the French Revolution, but it seemed like a good illustrative historical example.

    I think I get what you're saying about personal, rather than financial economy? But just because it's not consciously political, your autonomy and privilege, which allow you to make such decisions, is a product of politics.

    This is a thing that frustrates me when people say they're not "into" politics, or it doesn't matter to them, because everything in your life is affected by politics. The conditions of your birth, your education, the opportunities you are personally afforded and the ones you have to fight for, every product you buy and every amenity you use, politics is the fabric of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    I've already said that I think Trump should be stopped. I never said you should ignore warning signs or be inert - I think people should do the contrary and said so in my last post. I just think it is a stretch to compare it to the nazi regime at this point in time, it is still a democracy (that should be reformed) for what it is worth.
    I think we're comma fucking here, and whether you think its directly comparable to Nazism or not, the signs of creeping fascism are there and I stand by what I said; ignoring them would diminish the suffering that has gone before.

  14. #29
    Alt Universe CliqueMember Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    Okay, obviously economics predates the French Revolution, but it seemed like a good illustrative historical example.

    I think I get what you're saying about personal, rather than financial economy? But just because it's not consciously political, your autonomy and privilege, which allow you to make such decisions, is a product of politics.
    Yeah, so the two frameworks we hypothesized here are just that; frameworks looking at life from a different angle - yours being more like from social sciences (what "governs" the indivdual) and mine being more from like psychology (what "drives" the individual). Both sound valid and one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    This is a thing that frustrates me when people say they're not "into" politics, or it doesn't matter to them, because everything in your life is affected by politics. The conditions of your birth, your education, the opportunities you are personally afforded and the ones you have to fight for, every product you buy and every amenity you use, politics is the fabric of life.
    Oh I agree that some attitudes are absolutely frustrating. Some people over are like "oh I'm not going to vote this year, nothing ever changes anyway". Wtf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete! View Post
    I think we're comma fucking here, and whether you think its directly comparable to Nazism or not, the signs of creeping fascism are there and I stand by what I said; ignoring them would diminish the suffering that has gone before.
    Definitely comma fucking, we ultimately see the same dangers and want the same thing - I do it because I think details are important or felt like I wasn't explaining myself correctly. I usually don't doubt the greater direction, only the details - because people have a strong psychological tendency to overestimate the rate to which situations are similar. Also, my frustration surfaces with people making such comparisons (not talking about you or anyone here) while they clearly haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about.
    "Replies are a combination of nonsense, unrelated comments and inside jokes"‎

  15. #30
    Mr. Universe Pete!'s Avatar
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    Good. Woman with toddler confronts Pruitt at D.C. restaurant

    “Hi, I just wanted to urge you to resign because of what you’re doing to the environment and our country,” Kristin Mink told Pruitt inside a Teaism restaurant in downtown Washington, not far from the EPA’s Pennsylvania Avenue headquarters. “This is my son. He loves animals. He loves clean air. He loves clean water. Meanwhile, you’re slashing strong fuel standards for cars and trucks, for the benefit of big corporations.”
    I like the idea of a whole load of parents taking their children to interrupt Pruitt's day, asking him to justify irreparably fucking their future.

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