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Thread: The DNC Deathwatch Thread

  1. #31
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    I don't like purity but I'm also not fond of how the center left has started shutting down all criticism of the Democrat powers that be as butthurt Bernie bros demanding impossible standards. It started during the primaries and I believe it had as much to do with the lack of support for Hillary as nihilistic purity to start with. When you demand that some people are beyond criticism while governing legislative bodies, otherwise you're as bad as a Republican, you get people mentally checking out. The "with us or against us" attitude is toxic on both ends.
    When I quoted that I was thinking specifically of a couple of leftie friends I have who are less than honest about their own ideological bias. They were all over FB when the Dakota Access Pipeline shit was going down, and they were right about everything they said. But they didn't add any uncomfortable truths about their own history of participation in eco-terrorist groups decades ago. The FBI ended up going way too far in their scrutiny of those groups (to the point where innocent bystanders were caught up in the net) but they had legitimate reasons for checking them out to begin with. My friends look back on those times as Glory Days, patting themselves on the back for their destructive acts and refusing to admit they got caught up in the violent ideology. My point is that everyone should check themselves for bias on a regular basis.

  2. #32
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Everyone should - ironically, when I responded I was thinking about how many center-leftist/dyed-in Democrats are appalled by Trump's immigration policies but viciously shut down any criticism of Obama's deplorable immigration policies. I do think those attitudes (on more topics than just immigration) contributed to the far left feeling abandoned and not turning out (including the low turnout for HRC in the general among Latino and black voters), maybe not as much as Bernie Bro nihilistic purity but as an important factor. How do you not succumb to "burn it down" nihilism when one major party hates your cause and the other only gives a shit when they want to use it as a rhetorical cudgel against the other guy?

  3. #33
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    I gotcha. I'm trying as best I can to practice what I preach, hence my post when this thread was bumped about how I still blame Bill Clinton for capitalizing from, instead of pushing back on, the "personal responsibility" trope.

  4. #34
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Easy. Because you have to do whatever it takes to keep the party who truly hates your cause out of power. I would like to personally slap and spit in the face of every single idiot who claims he or she does not want to vote for the lesser of two evils. Every fucking vote in politics is for the lesser of two evils! Expecting some fluffy unicorn to make it onto the national arena is fucking insane.

  5. #35
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    With all due respect Dan, I think Obama compromised too much in all sorts of areas, especially healthcare. But after he inherited the mess the Bush administration left him with, he did try to walk back some of the egregious policies that were enacted after 9/11. He's the guy who created an executive order to ensure that the president can't hide behind his right to keep national security concerns private. If Donald Trump's team tries that defense in the Russiagate scandal, they now have to deal with black-letter law that spells out that they can't do that for the purpose of hiding illegal activities. That's a good law to have in place no matter who's in charge.

  6. #36
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    No one's expecting unicorns, but fact is if the Democrats don't feel like they have to work for the left wing votes, they won't do left-wing things. Instead they'll race to the right to try and peel off Republican voters, like Clinton did with welfare reform and like Obamacare did with immigration and his loose hand at criminal justice.

    I mean, we can beat on people who didn't turn out for the general election all we like, but we're not actually going to get anything done if we don't examine how the center left's own attitudes contributed to that disengagement. Shutting down all criticism of Democrats and painting everyone who wasn't over the moon to vote Dem in the general as a white millennial Bernie bro was imo part of that.

  7. #37
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Easy. Because you have to do whatever it takes to keep the party who truly hates your cause out of power. I would like to personally slap and spit in the face of every single idiot who claims he or she does not want to vote for the lesser of two evils. Every fucking vote in politics is for the lesser of two evils! Expecting some fluffy unicorn to make it onto the national arena is fucking insane.
    I have to remind you yet again that you're speaking from the perspective of a Romanian who has less to worry about than I do about your basic healthcare needs. This is a serious matter that needs serious discussion, not dismissal from the center left.

  8. #38
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Well, I mean, for the record I was never a big Bernie supporter either. I'm mostly just Over the thinkpieces about how the far left owed it to everyone to vote Dem (which, yes, they did owe it to everyone if they weren't in like California or Illinois) which completely gloss over how centrist Democrats participated in pushing the left wing out of the party. This was not one-sided toxicity. You can't spend years telling someone to sit down and shut up and nothing they care about matters and then be surprised when they check out.

    I also think for a non-negligible chunk of third party voters - myself almost included, because I did go Clinton at the last minute - we truly believed the media when they said she had a lock on it. We believed the 99.9% chance of Clinton victory prediction that came out the day before the election. We believed the early voter statistics from Nevada. This was probably even amplified for people in liberal areas. So it never felt like voting was a choice between risking Trump or protest-voting, it felt like a perfunctory ritual.

  9. #39
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    Also (and sorry, I am ranting on this but it makes me nuts), Hillary LISTENED to the people who wanted Bernie and took notes from him on policy, and presented the most progressive platform in Dem history. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
    I had some crazy, cynical idea that Bill Clinton, who is in failing health, would pass away quietly during her presidency, and then we'd see what she was like if she stood on her own two feet. She would have had plenty of innovative ideas of her own, and she would have had Bernie sitting in the catbird seat, holding her feet to the fire for single-payer.

    But who am I kidding? It's pretty obvious that the GOP fake news brigade had every intention of locking her up. That would have unleashed a fresh new hell just when she assumed the presidency and we thought we had a mandate. We on the left really do need to unite if we don't want to lose the next election.

  10. #40
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy View Post
    I have to remind you yet again that you're speaking from the perspective of a Romanian who has less to worry about than I do about your basic healthcare needs. This is a serious matter that needs serious discussion, not dismissal from the center left.
    Please, don't assume that any single payer healthcare system is perfect. If the system is underfunded, it doesn't matter that you have access to it.

    The most basic fact about the far left, just like with the far right, is that most of the country doesn't share its beliefs. Expecting to win on a full-on far left platform is kind of ludicrous. And I haven't seen anyone on the center left dismissing healthcare discussion. But the facts are there - Obama expanded coverage and fixed a lot of things, while Trump wants to blow it all up. Hillary would have at least stayed the course. Gee, what's a far left person to do? Anything to avoid the worst case scenario, obviously. Refusing to make that choice just because single payer wasn't on the ballot... well, we all know how it's going right now. The far left going all Tea Party in reverse is probably the most detrimental thing that could have happened to American politics. Republicans who didn't like Trump held their noses and voted for him anyway, because they knew that he was their best shot of getting it their way, even if not completely. And, again, look at what's happening! Gorsuch on SCOTUS, Kennedy likely to quit in the near future, RBG old as fuck. The re-escalation of the war on drugs, the resurgence of minimum mandatory sentencing. School vouchers. The US government under Russian influence, if not control. Decades-old military alliances crumbling before our eyes. The US leaving the Paris climate agreements. The far left/third party crowd must feel really fucking proud.

  11. #41
    Senior Member eresos's Avatar
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    Interesting & understandable how one may have not voted for Hillary but to me, at the end of the day, it was too risky not to vote for Hillary. A Trump presidency was unexeptable for humanity. And here we are now. In deeper, the division's stronger, and we are all more vulnerable for it

    We are sick. America, modern western society, is sick
    We got a big blow on 9-11 & we are in ptsd mode ever since
    Everything is life or death

    Everything is highly emotionally charged
    We are eating crap food, watching crap tv, want instant gratification
    Facts are alternative & minds are easily manipulated

    We are name calling, hatred & hostility towards fellow citizens growing
    Every action on the other side causes the other side to throw tantrum
    This cycle needs to break before we are broken for good
    "this way, that way, i am of two minds" -sappho
    http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/sappho/index.htm

  12. #42
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Please, don't assume that any single payer healthcare system is perfect. If the system is underfunded, it doesn't matter that you have access to it.

    The most basic fact about the far left, just like with the far right, is that most of the country doesn't share its beliefs. Expecting to win on a full-on far left platform is kind of ludicrous. And I haven't seen anyone on the center left dismissing healthcare discussion. But the facts are there - Obama expanded coverage and fixed a lot of things, while Trump wants to blow it all up. Hillary would have at least stayed the course. Gee, what's a far left person to do? Anything to avoid the worst case scenario, obviously. Refusing to make that choice just because single payer wasn't on the ballot... well, we all know how it's going right now. The far left going all Tea Party in reverse is probably the most detrimental thing that could have happened to American politics. Republicans who didn't like Trump held their noses and voted for him anyway, because they knew that he was their best shot of getting it their way, even if not completely. And, again, look at what's happening! Gorsuch on SCOTUS, Kennedy likely to quit in the near future, RBG old as fuck. The re-escalation of the war on drugs, the resurgence of minimum mandatory sentencing. School vouchers. The US government under Russian influence, if not control. Decades-old military alliances crumbling before our eyes. The US leaving the Paris climate agreements. The far left/third party crowd must feel really fucking proud.
    Well said, and you're preaching to the choir here. It really fucking burns me that the GOP was allowed to steal a Supreme Court justice. RBG has cancer - who knows how long she'll be a voice for sanity on that court? Bottom line is though - I'm someone who can't afford to dismiss the far-left's concerns. As far as brass-tacks issues on healthcare are concerned, I'm being dismissed as a champagne socialist when I'm just another one of many ordinary people who was hoping to be able to get my teeth fixed without having to go to Mexico. Now I can't even consider doing that, because someone will drag me off the plane if I so much as say boo.

  13. #43
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    I am a champagne socialist, and a proud one at that.

  14. #44
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Must be nice!

  15. #45
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Not that I'm wealthy or anything, but not working class either.

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