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Thread: The DNC Deathwatch Thread

  1. #31
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    This article made me feel like this thread needed to be bumped. I don't agree with it entirely, but I agree with a lot of it. I'm super left, but I understand that in the real world there has to be a disconnect between ideals and reality of governing. And I'm really tired of the "Bernie would have won" crowd. They. Don't. Stop.
    I must have missed this back in January. It's the perfect scathing indictment of the far left. I can especially relate to this point:

    This is the end result of a disgusting and unrepentant form of nihilism rooted in the belief that practically everyone is hopelessly corrupt and compromised, that there is no usefulness in trying to change or reform existing systems, leaves very little — if any — room for good people to make mistakes in judgement, ruthlessly purges people for being imperfect, and mandates that the current society must be completely burned down and destroyed by a massive revolt of the people to allow the ideologically pure to gain control and build a utopia for all to prosper. Hence the term nihilistic purity.
    So many of the people on the far left seem to be rooting for everything to burn down. They also seem to be willing to pull the wool over everybody's eyes to achieve their goal, so it's not like they're being honest about it. There won't be anything left if they keep this up.

  2. #32
    Remember. Steve SFM's Avatar
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    "Nihilistic purity." I fucking LOVE that.

    It's weird. I feel like my positions on issues are pretty far left; I mean, I consider myself to be a European-style social democrat. But I don't like the way so many far-left people in this country actually DO shit. I think in this country, we're supposed to have rational debate between opposing viewpoints and come to some logical compromise. Purity makes me break out in a rash.
    At my core, I think we're gonna be OK.

    Barack Hussein Obama

  3. #33
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    I don't like purity but I'm also not fond of how the center left has started shutting down all criticism of the Democrat powers that be as butthurt Bernie bros demanding impossible standards. It started during the primaries and I believe it had as much to do with the lack of support for Hillary as nihilistic purity to start with. When you demand that some people are beyond criticism while governing legislative bodies, otherwise you're as bad as a Republican, you get people mentally checking out. The "with us or against us" attitude is toxic on both ends.

  4. #34
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve SFM View Post
    It's weird. I feel like my positions on issues are pretty far left; I mean, I consider myself to be a European-style social democrat.
    Actually, that's not far left at all. Social democrats (like myself) are center-left to centrist on economic issues. Far left is the proles first bullshit that's so important in the Sanders/Corbyn movements.

  5. #35
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post
    I don't like purity but I'm also not fond of how the center left has started shutting down all criticism of the Democrat powers that be as butthurt Bernie bros demanding impossible standards. It started during the primaries and I believe it had as much to do with the lack of support for Hillary as nihilistic purity to start with. When you demand that some people are beyond criticism while governing legislative bodies, otherwise you're as bad as a Republican, you get people mentally checking out. The "with us or against us" attitude is toxic on both ends.
    When I quoted that I was thinking specifically of a couple of leftie friends I have who are less than honest about their own ideological bias. They were all over FB when the Dakota Access Pipeline shit was going down, and they were right about everything they said. But they didn't add any uncomfortable truths about their own history of participation in eco-terrorist groups decades ago. The FBI ended up going way too far in their scrutiny of those groups (to the point where innocent bystanders were caught up in the net) but they had legitimate reasons for checking them out to begin with. My friends look back on those times as Glory Days, patting themselves on the back for their destructive acts and refusing to admit they got caught up in the violent ideology. My point is that everyone should check themselves for bias on a regular basis.

  6. #36
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Everyone should - ironically, when I responded I was thinking about how many center-leftist/dyed-in Democrats are appalled by Trump's immigration policies but viciously shut down any criticism of Obama's deplorable immigration policies. I do think those attitudes (on more topics than just immigration) contributed to the far left feeling abandoned and not turning out (including the low turnout for HRC in the general among Latino and black voters), maybe not as much as Bernie Bro nihilistic purity but as an important factor. How do you not succumb to "burn it down" nihilism when one major party hates your cause and the other only gives a shit when they want to use it as a rhetorical cudgel against the other guy?

  7. #37
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    I gotcha. I'm trying as best I can to practice what I preach, hence my post when this thread was bumped about how I still blame Bill Clinton for capitalizing from, instead of pushing back on, the "personal responsibility" trope.

  8. #38
    generally largely right Dan's Avatar
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    Easy. Because you have to do whatever it takes to keep the party who truly hates your cause out of power. I would like to personally slap and spit in the face of every single idiot who claims he or she does not want to vote for the lesser of two evils. Every fucking vote in politics is for the lesser of two evils! Expecting some fluffy unicorn to make it onto the national arena is fucking insane.

  9. #39
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    With all due respect Dan, I think Obama compromised too much in all sorts of areas, especially healthcare. But after he inherited the mess the Bush administration left him with, he did try to walk back some of the egregious policies that were enacted after 9/11. He's the guy who created an executive order to ensure that the president can't hide behind his right to keep national security concerns private. If Donald Trump's team tries that defense in the Russiagate scandal, they now have to deal with black-letter law that spells out that they can't do that for the purpose of hiding illegal activities. That's a good law to have in place no matter who's in charge.

  10. #40
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    No one's expecting unicorns, but fact is if the Democrats don't feel like they have to work for the left wing votes, they won't do left-wing things. Instead they'll race to the right to try and peel off Republican voters, like Clinton did with welfare reform and like Obamacare did with immigration and his loose hand at criminal justice.

    I mean, we can beat on people who didn't turn out for the general election all we like, but we're not actually going to get anything done if we don't examine how the center left's own attitudes contributed to that disengagement. Shutting down all criticism of Democrats and painting everyone who wasn't over the moon to vote Dem in the general as a white millennial Bernie bro was imo part of that.

  11. #41
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Easy. Because you have to do whatever it takes to keep the party who truly hates your cause out of power. I would like to personally slap and spit in the face of every single idiot who claims he or she does not want to vote for the lesser of two evils. Every fucking vote in politics is for the lesser of two evils! Expecting some fluffy unicorn to make it onto the national arena is fucking insane.
    I have to remind you yet again that you're speaking from the perspective of a Romanian who has less to worry about than I do about your basic healthcare needs. This is a serious matter that needs serious discussion, not dismissal from the center left.

  12. #42
    it's a long long climb Kari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Compson View Post

    I mean, we can beat on people who didn't turn out for the general election all we like, but we're not actually going to get anything done if we don't examine how the center left's own attitudes contributed to that disengagement. Shutting down all criticism of Democrats and painting everyone who wasn't over the moon to vote Dem in the general as a white millennial Bernie bro was imo part of that.
    There is a big difference between not being "over the moon" and doing the logical thing. It is very hard for me not to be ripshit angry at people who didn't vote or voted third party. I am working on it, and I am trying to understand, but there WAS no choice, here. That much was clear to me and I am still struggling how anyone thought the other option was ok. Meanwhile, France was faced with LePen and EVERYONE banded together behind Macron. Because when you are faced with literal fascists, you put your fucking big boy pants on and do the right thing. You bitch and moan about centrism later. Yes, Obama made mistakes, yes he had some bad policies. No doubt Hillary would have fucked up too. But my god, the fact that the choice was even debatable will never fail to blow my mind.

  13. #43
    it's a long long climb Kari's Avatar
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    Also (and sorry, I am ranting on this but it makes me nuts), Hillary LISTENED to the people who wanted Bernie and took notes from him on policy, and presented the most progressive platform in Dem history. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

  14. #44
    Only knows desire. Perky Compson's Avatar
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    Well, I mean, for the record I was never a big Bernie supporter either. I'm mostly just Over the thinkpieces about how the far left owed it to everyone to vote Dem (which, yes, they did owe it to everyone if they weren't in like California or Illinois) which completely gloss over how centrist Democrats participated in pushing the left wing out of the party. This was not one-sided toxicity. You can't spend years telling someone to sit down and shut up and nothing they care about matters and then be surprised when they check out.

    I also think for a non-negligible chunk of third party voters - myself almost included, because I did go Clinton at the last minute - we truly believed the media when they said she had a lock on it. We believed the 99.9% chance of Clinton victory prediction that came out the day before the election. We believed the early voter statistics from Nevada. This was probably even amplified for people in liberal areas. So it never felt like voting was a choice between risking Trump or protest-voting, it felt like a perfunctory ritual.

  15. #45
    Let them eat cheese flan Nancy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    Also (and sorry, I am ranting on this but it makes me nuts), Hillary LISTENED to the people who wanted Bernie and took notes from him on policy, and presented the most progressive platform in Dem history. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
    I had some crazy, cynical idea that Bill Clinton, who is in failing health, would pass away quietly during her presidency, and then we'd see what she was like if she stood on her own two feet. She would have had plenty of innovative ideas of her own, and she would have had Bernie sitting in the catbird seat, holding her feet to the fire for single-payer.

    But who am I kidding? It's pretty obvious that the GOP fake news brigade had every intention of locking her up. That would have unleashed a fresh new hell just when she assumed the presidency and we thought we had a mandate. We on the left really do need to unite if we don't want to lose the next election.

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